Super Smash Bros. Melee Forum  /  using AR codes in speedruns
  mugg1991mugg1991
(edited: )

I think this is something that shouldn't be overlooked. So I'm going to make a topic about this...

Apparently Fuzzyness is using a code in his adventure mode speedrun to make the triforce appear in the same place every time, thus making the run more execution-based (by removing a luck-based element).

What is stopping anyone from going ahead and calling it cheating? And is the run, when finished, going on the leaderboards, just like that? It is unfair to those who don't have an AR (as well as those that have it but are unwilling to use it).

The point of an RNG heavy speedrun is that you have to endure through all the attempts until the luck complies. (See Kirby's Dream Land.) But when using a cheat, you just bypass that and the point of that speedrun category is defeated.

Edit:
I can see why the code is used. I'm just saying it, in some way, defeats the purpose of the speedrun category.

Trivia: Back in 2008ish when I was competing in 1P mode, people that ran event matches would strictly frown upon anyone who dared to use AR to make Peach always pull same item/pokeballs/etc. Not sure what it's like nowadays, but I'm under the impression it's still not allowed and I think keys didn't do it in his event 50.

ZeuparZeupar likes this. 
  easteast

I don't think it's fair to use that code or the c-stick in single player or any other modifications to the game. 😛

 
  mapler90210mapler90210

Are people using the "c-stick in single player" code as well? What the hell happened since I left the speedrunning community that people don't think of external modifications to the game as cheating?

 
  easteast

i don't know if anyone is using that but it is just another example of an AR code which changes the game

 
  andypantherandypanther

In speedrunning, it is up to the different communities to come up with a good ruleset. There are many approaches to this, but I do believe we should draw a line somewhere in what is allowed. Some basic rules should just universally be respected, rules like:

- Absolutely no cheats (obviously not including stuff like game modes that are accessed through a cheat)
- No hardware modifications
- The run needs to reach a clear end of the game (if it isn't something like a race category)
- The run needs to begin at the start of the game

If we allow to break some of these rules, just because it's more convenient, we basically open Pandoras box. Why not starting Ocarina of Time runs from Links house? That way we wouldn't have to watch that long cutscene every time! Why not starting Pokémon with a code that always gives the starter Pokémon perfect stats? It would save us from so many resets!

I know some things are annoying to deal with in runs, but getting rid of them is not worth it, if we have to sacrifice some of the most basic principles of speedrunning.

 
  ResolutionSSBResolutionSSB
(edited: )

Reasons For:
1) It makes the run more focused on skill.
2) It removes repetitiveness of runs.
3) It doesn't change the actual game play itself besides fast falling into the dash to the Triforce.
4) Fuzzyness and AyRookie are the most active, and do to the run being able to be more optimized via the code, more people may be involved.
5) It is easy to get an action replay/wii loader, so it is accessible to most people.
6) It is an automatic reset anyway. It is unlike other RNG because it takes more skill dealing with CPUs and knowing different strategies. It is not like item manipulation codes AT ALL.
7) It gives people who do not stream an advantage, because they can use the code without being caught.
8.) Less time is wasted in a person's life due to the optimization of the runs.
9) People have stated they would be interested in running this category again if the code was implemented (People like Sekanor).
10) Due to the category of this being so small, more people being involved would be healthy for this game.
If they quit due to being discouraged over one thing, that hurts newcomers for no reason because they get a bad image of the game.
11) The old community can be argued as inactive. (See 9 below)

Reasons Against:
1) AyRookie didn't use the code and still got the WR.
2) It could lead to more RNG codes being used, as a principle.
3) It increases the probability of WRing in a possibly negative light, as it makes the runner not have to be as consistent before getting the Triforce code (via less resets).
4) Codes are banned in other communities.
5) Break the targets banned the Peach RNG item code.
6) The RNG is early in the run.
7) Fuzzyness got the event WR without using codes, and it is WAY more RNG dependent.
8.) It might give the community bad reputation because it can be viewed as dishonorable to use a code to make runs easier.
9) The people who originally ran these categories apparently frowned upon using the codes.
¤¤¤¤10) ARookie is against the code usage, information from his stream: https://www.twitch.tv/ayrookie
¤¤¤¤11) Fuzzyness said that the only opinions of people that should influence it are the people running iit. Since the person that had the WR, A Rookie, doesn't approve of it, and earned his without doing the code, I believe it puts the argument against the code over the edge.
CONCLUSION:
PRE-EDIT:
After being on the fence, I am siding that the code should be allowed, because there is more evidence and logic on that side of it.

EDIT: Due to A Rookie/AyRookie being against it, I am again unsure. I think it should boil down to his opinion. Fuzzyness even said on his stream that A Rookie's decision should be a big influence in the discussion.

SekanorSekanor likes this. 
  mapler90210mapler90210

The first two reasons are evidence that the code DOES change the run. Not the content, but the attributes. Someone without AR and someone with AR aren't running the same KIND of run. One of them is fighting RNG, the other is fighting only their execution.

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  Pokemonmaster888Pokemonmaster888

Let it be known that I am completely against using Action Replay codes for any reason to alter the run, for any game. It isn't how the game is meant to be played, nor is it legitimate. For any reason. It violates the integrity of the run and the only slightly valid reason I have heard from people who support it is, "it saves real life time and attempts". I even am under the impression speedrun.com blanket bans these kind of things in the first place. It's a form of TAS if you use it and the runs aren't the same anymore.

I have been discussion this with other runners, mods and Fuzzyness in various places online and people's opinions are mixed in the Smash community, but the other communities are basically very against it as well. I for one will not verify/accept a run known to have used the code. There was talk of making a variable/entity for the leaderboards to have code/no code but even then that isn't something I'd like. I can see many people are against it and in my opinion, it's just common sense for a ton of reasons not to use it. I can comment more on the topic here if necessary.

 
  FuzzynessFuzzyness
(edited: )

you mean fighting resets lmao

no one runs this category because if you are going for a good time you have to get good hyrule rng, and it doesnt change the time of the run

Im fine with doing another 1k runs to beat this time cause it wasnt even good, but my argument for the code to be allowed for this category and very hard is because it would bring more competition and right now melee speedrunning is super dead (adventure mode)

The end product is exactly the same, it just reduces the frustration of wasting tons of real life time to resetting over stupid hyrule rng. More people will run the category if its more enjoyable imo

I feel the top runners usually have the most say in each community, for example ZFG1 gets a big say in the rules for OOT 100%

I'm 100% ok if someone beat my Very Hard world record which took over 25k runs using the hyrule rng code, why? because I like competition and I've experienced about 305 hours out of 800-1000 hours just losing runs to hyrule rng and I'd rather people actually get runs tbh than do the same shitty grind I did.

One of the big issues with codes in melee to manipulate RNG is its very hard to manage whether someone used codes / not to manipulate certain things such as Hyrule RNG, Bomb RNG (Peach).
If someone submits a run its nearly impossible to prove

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  hotdogturtlehotdogturtle

Using codes to get records, even if it just lets you do something that "you could do anyway" without the code, is completely unprecedented in both Melee Stadium (going back 15 years) and 99.999% of any traditional speedrun games ever. Ask anybody anywhere and I'm sure that you will get laughed at for suggesting that using codes should be allowed in legitimate runs. I think that Melee is in a weird position where it's not normally a "speedrun game" (most of its 1P modes are IL-based), and the fact that the speedrun community on this website sort of grew on its own without contact from the outside, older, pre-existing Melee 1P community.

As much as I don't want to turn this into a personal attack (and please cut me off if I start pushing the boundaries of any speedrun.com rules), I find fuzzyness's arguments for running with a code degrading to the community and borderline offensive (not to mention stupid). It's further escalated by his claim that since he has done the most attempts, he gets to make his own rules. That's not how it works. As andypanther said, there are some universal rules that apply to ALL games. One of those is that you must play the real game, with no modifications. Simply taking a WR does not allow you to bend the rules for yourself or anyone else. And doing a run with a code and claiming that it's a record does not allow you to invalidate the previous, non-code run. I don't understand why this is being so hotly debated. In any other community, if someone was found to have used a code that gave them an advantage, they would be instantly banned and their run would be thrown out. And those are people who usually try to hide their cheating; here were have people admitting to it. If you want to run "SSBM Adventure Mode with fixed location Triforce", then you're free to do that, but you are literally not playing the game video game as someone running "SSBM Adventure Mode". It's like if Almo did a TTYD run with the levitate code like he's done before, and then tried to submit it to an any% leaderboard because he beat the game in any percent. It's the same as if you cheated Pokemon to always make your starter have perfect IVs. It's possible to get it normally in the game, and you're just "saving time", but the grind to get that particular combination IS PART OF the game.

One last thing. Using the "someone could be using codes right now and you'd never know!!!" really just makes you sound more sketchy about the legitimacy of any of your videos. It's not an argument for the legalization of codes. Normally it would be considered a lowkey hint that someone was cheating without admitting it and people would start watching their scores more suspiciously. I don't know how the Melee community, which used to be super on point about catching cheaters and keeping legit record lists, got this lax and is now dealing with such a ridiculous problem about whether hacking is cheating.

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  ResolutionSSBResolutionSSB
(edited: )

My brain says the code should be allowed, but my heart says no. I'm consistently editing the list for valid arguments that have come up, that way it is easier for those that run it to make a decision.

EDIT: Since A Rookie is against the code, and what Fuzzy has said about A Riookie's opinion being important, I am now leaning against it.

 
  TemperGraceTemperGrace
(edited: )

Here's the way that I view this. Note that I have not much experience with SSBM; but rather with other games.

Use of external codes; be it action replay, cheat codes or whatever else; is considered flagrant cheating in all forms of competitive gaming. I have never heard of any similar situation in other games; where someone has manipulated the game using external tools and been caught, and then defended his position by saying that everyone else is in the wrong. This is also not the first time that Fuzzyness' has bent the rules intentionally to get records - I remember a situation about 18 months ago where he submitted an RTA-timed record to an IGT-timed category to get WR despite being slower. (Classic Very-easy any%)

In my mind, use of AR to manipulate RNG is a TOOL and therefore makes it a TOOL ASSISTED SPEEDRUN. Imagine if someone tried to use savestates in an RTA speedrun?!

There are far more hotly contested runs with significantly worse RNG spots (Dampe in OoT for example). Basically it boils down to (imo) - either get over it or don't run the category.

 
  ResolutionSSBResolutionSSB

My opinion is both have good arguments, but it should come down to A Rookie's opinion.

 
  AyRookieAyRookie

Actually thinking upon this topic. My opinion is as follows and I'll state my reasoning.
I believe that the AR violates the integrity of the run. Not just to the run, but Speed
Runners everywhere. What if everyone manipulated RNG like that?

My reasons:
-it's less than 2 min into the run
-it's more of a TAS than a speed run(just for that part obviously)
-if you don't use C-Stick, why use AR?

I don't care if he has the WR, but it's a little dishonest. At least put that use used AR in the description. I feel like Fuzzyness kind of rushed this WR imo. I believe Fuzzyness can get WR relatively easy, w/o AR since he has better strats than mine.

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  FuzzynessFuzzyness

i dont see why this thread is still open honestly cause im doing runs without it lol

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