Super Smash Bros. Forum  /  Removing Japanese Version (Locked)

Is there any reason to keep the Japanese version on the leaderboards?

Nobody runs on the Japanese version. Aside from one runner who submitted runs 2 months ago, the last person to submit a run was 9 months ago. The people who said they would do runs only on the Japanese version did a few runs, then never came back to the game. Aside from Falcon Very Easy, almost every category has one or two runs submitted to them, and some categories are completely blank.

On top of that, aside from 5 or so categories, none of the times are optimized in any way. The Japanese version is considered faster than the NA version, yet almost every time on the Japanese version doesn’t even come close to the NA version time, even from the same runner. Almost every runner who has tried both versions does not like doing runs on Japanese, and much prefers doing runs on the NA version.

Nobody runs on Japanese, most of the times are not even close to being optimized, and most people don’t enjoy running on the Japanese version. Is there any reason to keep the Japanese version on the leaderboards?

InprisonedShadowInprisonedShadow likes this. 
(edited: )

I haven't heard any complaints about JP being on the leaderboard, I haven't been active in the game for a while though. Anyone share pikashy's sentiments?

What do we have to gain by removing Japanese from this already version restrictive leaderboard? You can't see them by default and there isn't a huge amount of traffic on the site. There are several runners interested in doing Japanese runs in the future despite being inactive and having the option open leaves a possibility open of inviting Japanese smash bros players to post their runs here. Another good counter point is that US n64 carts have in the past year shot up in price and jp is very cheap and thus more accessible

(edited: )

I think a good compromise is to have a US N64 default category and change the JP one to other that will serve as a bucket category with all official release to catalogue and showcase the other runs with less emphasis.

InprisonedShadowInprisonedShadow likes this. 

I don't know if I agree or disagree with that suggestion. On the bright side, everyone can submit runs on every version and it could work out fine. However, it's no longer a leaderboard. You're going to have J runs competing against VC runs competing against iQue runs competing against PAL runs etc.

And for the same reasons as I said in my first post, nobody actively runs on these other versions, and the few runs that exist on these versions to begin with isn't really enough to say that we should be doing that imo.

If we suddenly get 3-4 people who are running on Japanese, and we actually have a reason to have Japanese, then we should absolutely have the Japanese version on the leaderboards. If we have a PAL runner, a J runner, and maybe 2 VC runners, or something like that, then I'd say it makes sense to do your "bucket" idea, since individually no version has enough interest for its own section, but enough "not NA N64" runs are being ran such that putting them together could work (though we may want to re-look into this after we have it up for a bit to make sure it actually works out).

However, at the moment, we don't have any active runners for that. The runs that currently exist on Japanese, in my opinion, do not warrant it to stay on the leaderboards. There are also next to no runs of any other version at the moment. But as interest in these versions increases, it makes sense to either make a single version section, or the "bucket idea". But for now, I personally think it should be taken out.

InprisonedShadowInprisonedShadow likes this. 
(edited: )

I won't agree to a NA N64 Version only leaderboards, it's just too divisive. On top of that the variable from region would need to be removed deleting all the runs to be resubmitted.

Leaving a bucket category is administrative in function tracking runs from other versions, that leaves the future option open to feature other categories.

Last and most importantly, the bucket category will include all official releases and our leaderboards will be more accepted by a larger majority of speedrunners. Many I have talked to are willing to voice their concerns for our decisions to exclude versions entirely. I believe this is the best compromise to please the most amount of parties.

A Final Note: I will not be submitting any IQue times to the bucket category
Edit: title IMO should be "Other Versions" making it verbally separated/segregated. The addition of another button to click and another region field when runs are submitted is a small price to pay for the above advantages of a bucket category.


I am trying to make a response without being disrespectful, but I can’t. You’ve literally given arguments and reasons that I cannot respond to without bringing in something that you have done. I’m going to try to make this as respectful as I can, but there may be places where it may seem disrespectful. If so, I’m sorry, but I literally have no other way I can respond properly.

If I recall correctly from being able to edit the leaderboards, you are able to select which versions are allowed. It’s literally a check box you click. You can literally unselect every version except for NA N64. Every run does not end up being deleted. I may be wrong about this, but if not, the whole “deleting and resubmitting” is not an issue.

If runs do have to be deleted and resubmitted, then you’re just proving my point a year ago that the leaderboards were never finished properly. During the making of the leaderboard, we agreed to have it NA N64 only. Midway through the building of the leaderboards, we added in Japanese as a test to see what it looked like. You shoved in all your Japanese runs to make it impossible to remove without a massive backlash, and even did Japanese runs for every other category just so that every Japanese category had a run. Japanese was never supposed to be added to the leaderboards in the first place. You just shoved your runs in so that you got your way and there was nothing we could do about it without causing massive drama. Not only that, many changes were impossible because they may force us to delete every single run that was submitted to the leaderboards (including all the Japanese runs you shoved in). So if you’re going to complain about us having to delete and re-submit every single run on the leaderboards, or have to make modifications to the specifics of the leaderboards, that is all on you for ruining the building of the leaderboards back when we were doing it initially. A few weeks later, I asked Shadow when the three of us agreed that Japanese should be on the leaderboards. He was just as confused as I was.

As far as the Japanese runs go, only around 6 runs are actual decent attempts. The ones I remember off the top of my head are Shadow’s Link runs for each difficulty, his Fox Very Easy run, and your DK Very Hard run. I may be missing some, but none of the other runs are optimized in any way possible. Shadow himself said he doesn’t care as much about his Japanese runs. Aside from DK Very Hard (and maybe one or two more that I am forgetting), most of your Japanese runs are bad (on purpose). They are much slower than the NA run, even though Japanese is the faster console. Even comparing only your runs, all but 2 runs you’ve submitted to both are faster on the NA version. If the leaderboards are going to be filled with purposefully bad runs, that is not a leaderboards.

And before you flame me for calling your runs bad, you said yourself on your stream while doing the runs that your runs were being made bad on purpose. You said, on stream, you were purposefully doing bad runs to try to bait me into doing Japanese runs for free World Records. I mentioned this to Shadow months later, and he said you said the same thing to him to try to get him into doing Japanese runs. You were basically trying to bait us into doing runs so that Japanese would be immediately a legitimate version to run (I don’t get that logic at all).

Otherwise, nobody runs Japanese at the moment. Nobody has ran Japanese seriously, and nobody has shown any interest in running Japanese at all. The last run was submitted 2 months ago by one person in 7 categories (who has also submitted runs on NA). The last runs submitted before that were 9 months ago. Looking at the 36 character category on Japanese, 6 categories do not even have a run submitted, and over half of the categories have at most one run submitted. Nobody cares about Japanese runs at the moment, and until people actually start showing interest again, there is no reason at all for a separate section for Japanese.

We’ve had the Japanese category up for a year, and all of these people who wanted it up did nothing while it was up. So it’s had its chance.

As far as the “bucket” idea, after having thought about it, it won’t work properly at all. Having a separate section on the leaderboards just to dump a bunch of random runs in is not how a leaderboard should work. Those runners who have done runs on other versions have often only done one (or very few) categories. That does not add up to enough for a leaderboard at all imo. Not to mention you’re going to have a mess of versions being “compared” to each other, and the better run is not necessarily higher on the leaderboard. So as far as the “bucket” idea goes, we don’t have nearly enough runs for it to work, nor do I think it would be a good idea either way.

Another thing I should mention: These leaderboards should be a decision made by ¤¤¤¤¤THE SMASH 64 SPEEDRUNNING COMMUNITY¤¤¤¤¤. In other words, the community of players that run smash 64 should be the ones involved in this decision. Also, no one person should be making the decision for the community. Not you, and not me. I have my opinion on what should happen. You have your opinion on what should happen. However, it is the community as a whole that should decide what ultimately happens. That said, those involved in the decision should be aware of the reasons for all sides of the decision. If you tell people your side, and completely bypass my side, of course everybody is going to side with you. But if they see my arguments, then maybe some will agree with my opinions. So although you say you “won’t agree to a NA N64 Version only leaderboard”, if the smash 64 speedrunning community believes it is the better option, then that is what should be done, whether you agree to it or not.

Also, I emphasized that it should be smash 64 runners making the decision. If someone from another game has an opinion on what should happen in this game, but has never ran the game, and has no intention on ever running the game, then their opinion should not have any weight on the decision. They are fully able to give their opinion on the matter, and support a side, and try to get one side to gain more support. However, when the final decision comes down, they should not have a say in what happens.

Almost everyone in every other speedrunning community is unaware of the version differences in this game. For most games, the difference between Japanese and NA is minor text, or maybe a few slight differences (a star in or out of a box in Super Mario 64 for example). Really, there is no major difference. In this game, the games aren’t even comparable for speedrunning. The AI acts so differently, all moves have less hitstun/hitlag, and many characters have different properties altogether. So getting the opinion from someone who is completely unaware of the differences, then saying they think removing NA is stupid and isolationist, is literally getting someone who is completely unaware of the differences in the version to make a completely uninformed decision, fully biased in your favour. It’s not even their fault, they just have no idea of the differences that exist in this game, and aren’t told before asking for a decision.

I saw your poll on Twitter. That was the most biased thing you could have done. You made a public poll to anybody on a topic in which any other game’s speedrunners would immediately say “keep Japanese”. Not to mention, most of the people voting are following you, and will likely support your side because of that. You even vaguely posted the link to this thread, in which several people wouldn’t have even clicked before voting. You had to have known all of this while making the poll, that pleading to the uninformed person would result in a massive vote in favour of you. So the fact that the result came out to be 16-2 in favour of keeping Japanese is not surprising at all. In fact, I was surprised 2 people even voted to remove Japanese (I did not vote on that poll, so two other people chose that). That said, that poll does not represent at all the opinion of the smash 64 speedrunning community. And then you bash me and personally attack me several times in the comments of that tweet, making people reading think I have no idea what I am talking about (a few more votes for keeping Japanese). Seriously, there is nothing good I can say about that tweet. If this is where your “many voices” is coming from, then I think I answered my opinion on that right there. They probably don’t even run the game, have no intention on running, and have not even read anything I said in this thread.

No disrespect to anyone who voted, you did nothing wrong, just voted on a poll that was there. Nothing wrong with that at all.

In summary: Nobody runs Japanese. Nobody has submitted runs in a long time, nobody has shown any intention on submitting runs. The runs on the leaderboards are not optimal in any way, and almost every run submitted by you was made bad on purpose. There is no reason to keep the Japanese version on the leaderboards at the moment. If people start running Japanese again, and it gains popularity, then it would maybe be a good time to add it in. But for now, nobody runs it, it doesn’t look like anybody will run it, and it was never supposed to be there in the first place. So in my opinion, it should be removed.


1. Having another field where only one option is selectable for submissions doesn't make sense and therefore I assumed you were requesting the removal of the variable. I do recall you complaining about the additional field

2. In addition to the points you brought up before I do agree that Japanese is getting an unnecessary spotlight and it does not warrant a category distinction

3. I believe you may have misinterpreted my intents in running the japanese category with filler runs, my comments on that particular stream, and my intent in adding japanese. I was running unoptimized JP runs to fill categories to make Japanese not be empty and mentioned onstream that I hoped it would bait you into trying out Japanese with little hope. My intent can be found in response #7

4. I agree that decisions should be made by the smash 64 speedrunning community that's why I stated I would not agree to NA N64 only though I am uncertain as to what would qualify someone for being part of the smash 64 speedrunning community. Video of run in the past 2 years? 3? 5? or would it be that you have to be part of community discussion on streams etc. on an ongoing basis.

5. My personal anecdotes that I value come from people who have submitted or would be likely to submit if VC was able to be submitted(some have runs they couldn't even submit). My twitter poll was not cited as a reference and I never personally took anything out of that poll other than most of the people following me who would bother to click would rather have it included. I never have claimed to represent the smash 64 speedrunning community and haven't even promoted it as a speedgame or even talked about it much in months.

6. I bashed you publicly once because your concerns which I interpreted to be about perception of the leaderboards were hypocritical given your lack of support for and removal of runs from this leaderboard. That being said I don't think it was done with much tact on my part and was an emotional response driven by spite. I don't regret doing so I will not apologize.

7. My intents with the change to US and JP.
When we were discussing publicly the change in leaderboards a number of people read into the discussion that both had ssb64 runs and were/are interested in possibly doing runs. Not only did a couple voice their concern at the exclusion of categories in forums threads but also as I was interacting with speedrunners with runs of the game with the exception of a few all wanted to see some way to track runs on other versions at the least. I included Japanese because I was not only interested to see the response but also in response to those criticisms or our active community. It is true I have not been successful in my efforts but I have only had intents to foster growth. I realize I have prioritized the wants of new members and interested parties over the experienced players.

I would like to at least keep the variable for version at the very least so we have the future option to add more. I stand by my belief that US N64 and Other Versions is the best course of action.


I'll be honest, I am completely confused by that response. Half of that response is contradictory to what you've said previously, as if you're trying to "remove" bad things you've said (e.g. baiting me into Japanese, flaming me on Twitter), and replace them with good things instead to make you look good. The other half is basically entirely filler and not related to anything at all. The only point that is somewhat relevant to the discussion is one or two sentences in your #7. Even then, it's not really relevant (just talking about past intentions).

Is there anything I am missing? Or do you not have an actual response to my post?


I admitted to both trying to bait you into Japanese and flaming you on twitter in my above response, I dunno what you think I am replacing them with. Dismissing my responses though they were honest, direct and succinct as I could make them is frustrating. What do you want a response on? I thought I had addressed everything you said

(edited: )

I meant the topic is about Japanese on the leaderboards (and bucket as well I guess). Nothing you said is related to that discussion from what I can find.

edit: i.e. you gave no reasons as to why Japanese (or bucket/other) should remain on the leaderboards.


-administrative function of tracking runs
-less division and more acceptance from speedrunners as a whole
-satiating the desires of people that want to submit specifically VC times
These were all stated above your last wall of text.


I responded to all three of those in my "wall of text". Your next post (#1 to 7) did not have anything to do with whether or not Japanese/bucket/other should be on the leaderboards. What you are basically saying is my entire wall of text doesn't matter.

Honestly, if that is how you are going to go about this, there is no reason for me to even attempt to argue my point. I spent 3 and a half hours making that post (with a short break in the middle). If all that time is for nothing, there's no reason for me to waste time making a post like that. I feel like anything I say, if it's not what you want to hear, you will just brush it into nothing, and publicly flame me and turn me into a villain. You've been treating me like this for 3 years, bullying me, flaming me, painting me as the villain, and if that's how you're going to continue, there's no reason for me to bother attempting to argue against you.

I honestly have no idea what I have done to you to deserve to be treated the way I've been treated for the last 3 years. I have been as respectful and supportive as I could be no matter how you’ve treated me, helping you whenever you ask for help, etc. In response, you've treated me so poorly you caused me to quit speedrunning twice. The flaming, shaming, villainizing, and bullying you've done to me, often because of the "WR" runs I've been getting, is the main reason I removed my runs from the leaderboards in the hopes that it would stop. Also, often when you do something wrong, you turn it around on me and blame me. You've been disrespectful to me this whole time, and I have no idea why.

Now I come here and make a suggestion to make the leaderboards look cleaner, and you do it again. You make a completely biased poll on Twitter, as well as flame and shame me publicly. All of this is done within 24 hours of me making a simple suggestion. It never ends, and I'm tired of it.

You said something to me 6 months ago that sums up how you've treated me for the last 3 years. It's something I've never forgotten, and probably will never forget for the rest of my life:

"For the record I don't just claim that you don't care about the community, I believe it. your actions are in direct conflict with the good of the community in my eyes."

I've been silent about the way you've been treating me this whole time, but honestly, after 3 years, I've had enough, so I'm making it public. If you want to continue bullying me, now the community knows about it.

As far as the leaderboards go, do what you want. That’s what you’ve been doing anyways whether people agree with you or not. I’m wasting my time even trying to make a suggestion, and anything I do, you turn it against me. I’m done.

(edited: )

If there was anything I did to you to be treated the way you've been treating me, please, let me know. If I'm doing something wrong, I'd like to know so that I don't do it in the future to others. But right now, I have no idea what I've done, and don't know if I even did anything wrong at all.

(edited: )

I'm not a runner of this game, but let me explain my situation regarding this game. Maybe it applies to other potential runners as well:

I want to start running this game, but I don't have an NTSC cartridge yet, only my old PAL one. It would be obvious for me to get the Japanese version. Why? It's a much simpler answer than you might think: Japanese versions are much, much cheaper for me to get! So whenever I have the choice, I go for Japanese versions.

When I eventually get that Japanese cartridge and start doing runs, I will submit them here, under whatever category you put them. If this leaderboard doesn't accept my version, I will keep track of my times myself. I will definitely not spend considerably more money on a US cart, just to get on an arbitrarily restricted leaderboard.


Cyber Bullying is a crime in the country where we both live in, if you have criminal evidence to back up your accusation I suggest you actually present some, if you don't have any please don't accuse me of such a crime. I am well within my rights to publicly express my dissatisfaction with your actions in regards to the leaderboard.

(edited: )

Noone makes you quit speedrunning, you quit speedrunning. You have not answered a very important question I asked you and that is what qualifies someone in your eyes to be a community member because I have talked to every person who has tried running this in the past 2 years and offered them my help. A vast majority of people who I have discussed version inclusion on these leaderboards with in their stream and submitted at least a run expressed interest in being able to track all versions in some way.

When you let your personal feelings towards a person of the community have a higher priority than objective reason in discussing matters of the leaderboard you have lost validity in the discussion. Please discuss this like an adult and stop with the personal attacks. You gave up your privileges as a mod on this leaderboard and gave up speedrunning this game. You can say that my passionate and forceful efforts to revise this leaderboards have caused you to quit but that was your decision, you can only control your own actions. Why should your opinion be more valid than those who have started speedrunning in the last year and have submitted runs to this leaderboards? Noone else on this thread has expressed anything but support for my compromise, it's not what what I want but what the majority of smash 64 runners want based on my perception of their opinions. IF I am wrong in my perception i will compromise more but I have no evidence this is the case. I suggest if your another person who has submitted ssb64 to these leaderboards you state your opinion on the matter.


Hey I got 2 WRs in this game and submitted in the past year. Do I count as a smash 64 speedrunning community member? IMHO I think all versions should be included and based on how the site is structured, the compromise of the bucket category sounds good to me.

(edited: )

andypanther your story mirrors what I have heard from runners not only in Europe but North Americans as well. This game's us cart is getting insanely expensive and it's being kept by collectors I know in almost all cases. The case is similar on VC, a lot of people downloaded VC at a mere fraction of the cost of a cart.
My ideal leaderboards has a sub category for jp n64 and a bucket category with a possibility of us vc seperation if lots of those runs are submitted in the bucket. A compromise to what I want is what I have proposed that I think pleases almost everyone.

(edited: )

As probably the most active runner of the game, I'll leave my thoughts. I've been running for 2 years consistently, and actively do runs, others take their respective breaks whether its from the game or streaming in general. I am always trying to stream so I don't take that many breaks from the game unless I am running something else, but I will always come back to it oftenly whether its for going into serious attempts or just running for the love of the game. (aka too much free time Kappa )

I'll start with saying both sides of the conversation have good points. In these 2 years I have seen the community really struggle on the topics of version legality. When I first joined, I was for having more versions because I too thought it was better for the game and would help it open up opportunities for new possible runners. Which is easy to want, after all, I was new and after seeing many other games and communities do it, I thought why not? This is a common thought I think almost everyone feels. Since it's possible they haven't put much time into both versions, and don't know much about the differences or game in general. Using SM64 as an example; very popular game, uses both versions. No differences except some minor text things that save a few seconds. It's fair to have it as a different version to use. SSB64 doesn't have that what so ever. Text does save a very slight amount of time. But there's also so many differences that include hit stun, weak as paper AI, etc that It's essentially a different game. The category hasn't been worked on much, next to at all and to me it seems like a pointless reason to have free "WRs" on there for anyone who does attempts.

There's always people who say "I will use japanese version and run the game" and they do so for a bit then stop. It's not like Im trying to avoid giving them a chance but this has been happening ever since the option to have it on to the leaderboard was put on. Which was a test to begin with and did show it maybe wasn't worth it. So the Japanese version of the leaderboard stays barren. Even if it's the most easily accessed version, do you really see a point in keeping it here? I'm not trying to sound rude at all, but if the whole reason you're only able to play the game is because its cheapest is kinda off to me..If it is the easiest accessed version I'm kinda surprised it's not played more/actually wanted to be ran. The bucket category to me seemed like a fair trade, but also is a reason why it would be pointless to keep the japanese version around. Makes it even less significant than it already is IMO. Its essentially the same as not having it at all.

In the end, I just want what's better for the community, and the people who would like to run it. I do my best to always remain neutral and keep an open mind. As well as help any new runners with any things they might need. Same with Pikashy, he's not a villain or anywhere near close to a bad person. He's just had some really bad experiences with getting thrown under the bus whenever things go wrong. Heck, After seeing most of this happening I was considering taking a long break from the game as well. Plus probably being the greatest runner of the game, he's done so much for the community; develop strats, figure optimizations for master hand on some characters, help any runners improve (including myself) etc. It's fair to pay more attention to what he suggests, than just brushing it off because of what people necessarily want rather than him who has way more knowledge of the game & version differences. Anyways, this is just my 2 cents. If there's anything else i would add, it's just run the game if you want to. There's no wrong way to speedrun a game, but things can differ in terms of leaderboards and what understanding the purpose of them. But I hope more people want to run NTSC-U, because its the better version and much better experience. plus..look how many categories already exist for just we really need double, triple that? But if you want to run J/or have no choice in the matter, go ahead. Look foward to seeing new peoples faces & work! Perhaps you will bring life to it. FrankerZ

(if i missed anythiing it's probably because I too have been writing for many hours. not just this post but school stuff included, so I am sorry if it's bad.)

(edited: )

The only thing you missed was actually stating what you believe the best course of action is, as the most active runner I think your opinion is important to this conversation.
I believe I have given Pikashy's opinions a great amount of consideration and attention, that being said I don't think I should value his opinion over people who actually have runs on this leaderboards in spite of his numerous contributions to the practice. His opinions should not matter more than anyone else that has submitted to these leaderboards ever in my opinion. His knowledge of version differences has been communicated time and time again on these forums and people just don't want to read large amounts of text.

To Pikashy: anything I did not respond to in your wall of text I agreed with.

I don't know what you believe is bullying but the word has a legal and criminal definition in this country and criticizing the acts of others publicly is not bullying. That is a not a fair representation of my actions. The best speedrun leaderboards have the best runs on them and this is the largest issue of perception with our leaderboards beyond any version inclusion problems. When a potential runner asks in a stream or twitter what the wr is and where the video is unless I know specifically who has the record in that category I have to refer them 2 places, this means that they have to search through your twitch history and manually compare with this leaderboards before they even decide to try running the game. They ask why and I dunno honestly why you have done it. The largest problem with the perception of this leaderboards is that it is a place of conflict and confusion for new players. The versions featured have much less of an affect than the accuracy at which it identifies the best run. I have no responsibility to represent your arguemeants publicly when I criticize you, you have the power to make public statements to defend your positions but you don't. Public critique is not slander or libel as the criticisms I have are based on actions that actually happened. If you don't want to publicly defend your actions from my criticisms that's your choice but I am perfectly within my rights to do so without being accused of actual criminal actions. I agree I haven't been nice to you and I have definitely been rude but your actions have caused considerable loss of interest by potential runners by the dozens in my eyes. If you would make the suggestion to bring your runs on with the removal of all other versions that would be a tempting offer for me to further compromise but I don't see the point of doing so just to make you happy and then still face the same problems we face now with lack of accuracy in tracking WRs as a leaderboard(the #1 function for a leaderboard). Shadow I assume from his above post wants us all to agree no matter what the decision is, when you have a disagreement with someone you can't reconcile the responsible thing to do is suggest a compromise. I have shown a willingness to compromise from my positions again and again throughout the 3 years of version inclusion discussion and the evidence is in these forums, don't take it from me look it up. I changed my position repeatedly and you haven't made a single compromise. You have the ability to record video so your positions and statements can be communicated clearly but you haven't done that, by leaving your opinions hidden in text on this forum you have essentially placed your public image in the hands of those who publicly present them in any way they interpret it.. For the most part you are portrayed positively by both myself and shadow, it's just on the topic of leaderboards I negatively paint you.

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