Forums  /  Speedrunning  /  Flaws in speedrunning (Locked)

I joined the Speedrunning community a few months ago and I must say that there are some big flaws
in the system. I'll first start by addressing my biggest problem with the system and go from there

1.Merging different versions in the same category
I started speedrunning by running Toy Story 2 on Psone. On the TS2 leaderboards, they merge all
versions (PS,PC,DC,N64) into the same categories. PC is by far the fastest. Some people would argue
that speedrunning is about going fast. But this is the flaw in this kind of thinking. If the different
versions are all compared to one another by putting them on the same board, and speedrunning is
about going fast, then why don't you ban the slower versions? What is the point of even having them
there if they are just going to be inferior? You should just say "Here's the PC version, if you don't run
it then don't speedrun this game at all".

2.Allowing version specific glitches
Going back to TS2, there is a clip that allows you to skip the basement in Andy's House. It's
exclusively on the N64 version. There's a similar clip on PC where in Penthouse you go from the
kitchen directly to the bathroom and save 20 or so seconds. Moving to another game I decided to
speedrun, 102 Dalmatians, there is a glitch that is exclusive to the Psone version that saves a couple
MINUTES! But they recently merged the PC and Psone versions because the PC's load times are
faster. As if that somehow makes up for it. The PSone is still the superior version by far. All merging
the two versions did was make the PC version not stand a chance.

3.Modding PC but not modding console
This is the most confusing part of the speedrunner's mentality. Why are you able to mess with your
computer's guts but you aren't able to mess with your console's guts? This is possibly a result of
bias towards the PC versions of games. You might say that PCs are meant to be modded. In which
case I say PC versions should probably be banned all together. Since the hardware can vary so
greatly. And many people might not even be able to run PC games of a certain era. This creates an
inclusive environment in the speedrunning community. A mentality that basically says "If you don't
have the PC version then don't even speedrun"

So I'd like to recap for people that might be overwhelmed at this point

1.People say that speedrunning is to go fast.
2.Generally, the PC version is the fastest version.
3.So why include any other version on the leaderboards?

1.Multiple versions are merged
2.Some versions have version exclusive glitches
3.Creates an innacurate leadboard

1.PC can be modded to be the best version of any game
2.Consoles can't even compete because you can't mod them
3.Why even include any other version if
A)The point of speedrunning is to go fast
B)PC is the fastest version

1.Make every version into it's own sub category
2.Ban every version except for PC

Of course one is more logical than the other

I'll leave you with this. I'm not attacking anyone. I'm just pointing out what I see. You can make what
you can of these and maybe you can correct me on some of these.

PeterAfroPeterAfro, ahbeefahbeef and 2 others like this. 

I guess people would rather call me a doggface instead of bringing actual logical rebuttals. No wonder speedrunning is as flawed as it is. You're so content in your ignorance.

Sam_BaSam_Ba, AndreaRovenskiAndreaRovenski and 3 others like this. 

Since all this has gotten is troll responses I'll give some actual responses.

Point number 1 sounds like bad moderation- if two versions can't be fairly compared, they shouldn't be. You don't ban the slower versions or the faster versions, you compare together if the game is the same and if not, you separate. This changes somewhat based on game, but for the most part you get the fastest hardware or retime every run without loads, if that's the concern.
Version specific tricks fall into version specific and platform specific: version specific usually just says "go get the fastest version" (see: Banjo Kazooie) while platform specific will usually result in separate categories. The other main difference between platforms is load times which can either be left in or removed. Usually they'll be left in for console games since those are supposedly consistent. It's not perfect, but then again neither is slaving over every run submitted to get an accurate loadless time. Crash Bandicoot: The Wrath of Cortex has wildly differing loads by platform and runs get adjusted because of this, Ty the Tasmanian Tiger has XBox over a minute faster but everything is compared together.

tl;dr on point 1: platform specific tricks should not be put into the same category, version (1.0/1.1) can if all versions are accessible, load time variations suck but they exist.

Point 2 ALSO sounds like bad moderation for the same reason as above. I don't need to go any further than that.

Point 3 has a very simple explanation: consoles are standardized. PCs aren't. If you have a PS2 with the SCPH-79001 BIOS, it's going to run the same as another with the same bios. (barring hardware deterioration but once you go to that level, you're arguing everyone's times can only be compared with their own times) With a PC, you could have 2 machines running the same OS but with wildly different specs. Because of this PC games have traditionally been timed without loads, though not every game does this now since it is a lot of effort.
However, modern consoles aren't as standardized, with SSDs and other official hardware. Again though, there's a simple line to draw: is it official? It's fine. If load times/whatever get really out of hand, you just retime without the loads.


1.People say that speedrunning is to go fast.
2.Generally, the PC version is the fastest version.
3.So why include any other version on the leaderboards?

1. Correct.
2. Also correct.
3. Because in many cases you can compare directly, and so those without the PC version of a given game can compete as well. If you can't comapre directly, you split up the category by platform. Shrek 2 is a completely different game on PS2/PC to the point where, well, on the site it's a completely different game!


1.Multiple versions are merged
2.Some versions have version exclusive glitches
3.Creates an innacurate leadboard

1. Correct.
2. Also correct depending on game.
3. Incorrect. The leaderboard is still accurate (as long as it's not comparing across platforms), it just adds that you have to get the best version to go for the best time. Which, to be honest, is a bit annoying but it's not too different from many other hobbies and it's still cheaper than said other hobbies.


1.PC can be modded to be the best version of any game
2.Consoles can't even compete because you can't mod them
3.Why even include any other version if
A)The point of speedrunning is to go fast
B)PC is the fastest version

1. Incorrect, as your own point about the dalmatian game said. But aside from that point, the main difference is load times for current gen games, not exclusive tricks. Load times can be removed from comparisons.
2. Also incorrect, for the reason outlined just above. Softmodding consoles to get around region locking has also been allowed since the beginning.
3. Decent conclusion from faulty points.

So your final point is to ban everything but PC or separate everything to the extreme. The actual best solution lies somewhere in the middle with case by case decisions, as sometimes you do want to compare everything together, while in many other cases you won't.

sorusoru, SluckySlucky and 12 others like this. 

I was writing a little something as well, but NoName summarized my thoughts pretty nicely. Refer to his points, they're pretty damn good.

I just want to ask you a hypothetical question:

Let's say InternetGuy2007 has seen a few runs of Crash Bandicoot 2, and decides to give it a try. He doesn't necessarily want, nor does he have the means, to buy and ship a PAL PS2 and copy of the game (the recognized fastest version) to where he lives, so he decides to download ePSXe and the game's ISO to give it a try. Next thing we know, InternetGuy2007 starts getting really good at the game. Despite the 2.5 minute disadvantage brought by emulating over actual hardware, after a few months of grinding out the game, he beats the WR time. He's on an inferior version, but still beats the record time.

Now what you're suggesting, is that this guy's time should not be allowed on the leaderboard because he's on inferior hardware? Or is this some sort of exception?

BreakthroughBreakthrough, sorusoru and 8 others like this. 

A lot of the stuff you say in the opening post is not as set in stone as you seem to think it is. Some communities decide to have all versions on a single board, some decide to have a seperate board/category for every release and some decide to hide some versions by default. Some communities decide to remove loading times and some decide to keep them. And the way you arrive at a community decision is by requesting the game first and only adding mods that agree with you.

YarumasiYarumasi, zewingzewing and xDrHellxxDrHellx like this. 

Why are PC players always so ignorant. Like ALWAYS.


I don't understand why all games can't be like the first three Harry Potter instalments and have completely different games for each platform. OUTRAGEOUS (tbhimook)


just run the fastest version of your game this isn't rocket science

catnipcatnip, YarumasiYarumasi and AndreaRovenskiAndreaRovenski like this. 

Well... you know with the leaderboards you can sort them by console? So you can see who has the best time for each console. The thing about splitting them to their own category because PC is good is a dumb reason. It's the same game literally the same game. Doesn't matter if there are different glitches. Also with ts2 there isn't just one category, there's 30 and 40 token. 30 token is for those that play n64 and 40 token is for those that play PC and ps1. And yes for 100% PC is fastest because of all the clips. But I think your argument could use a little more back up.