Forums  /  Speedrunning  /  Why Mr Krabs Overdoses On Ketamine Was Rejected? (Locked)
  Ren_MamamiaRen_Mamamia
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Dear mods,

If the game is "too short / trivial" to be added to this website, why is pencil sharpening allowed to have its own speedrun page?

https://www.speedrun.com/pss

blittzoblittzo likes this. 
  DarQ_MassacresDarQ_Massacres

the criteria for games to be accepted has changed a lot since PSS was accepted 4 years ago

WhatsFrogWhatsFrog, QuivicoQuivico and 7 others like this. 
  Ren_MamamiaRen_Mamamia
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@DarQ_MassacresDarQ_Massacres

Then how about Minecraft classic? There's literally nothing to do in this game:

https://www.speedrun.com/mcc

Is there a grandfathering clause to these games? Do the rules not apply proactively?

Oh and how about the massive catalogue of Atari classic games? Aren't they considered "too short" to be on this website. Anyone can beat those games, on average, in about 5 - 10 minutes; which is the same time as MKODOK.

blittzoblittzo likes this. 
  PearPear

@Ren_MamamiaRen_Mamamia That game was added to the Minecraft series by one of its moderators, so the site mods weren’t involved in that.

WhatsFrogWhatsFrog, QuivicoQuivico and 3 others like this. 
  Ren_MamamiaRen_Mamamia

@PearPear

Again though, how about the many amounts of Classic Atari games that are "too short" by the moderator's standards. I would be fine with the rule if it was applied to all of the games on this site; even including classic Minecraft.

blittzoblittzo likes this. 
  Oreo321Oreo321
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To summarize the answers for those questions (why some games are in the site, when it looks like they shouldn't be):

1. Site rules for accepting games into the site, have become stricter over time. However, new rules don't apply retroactively, so games that made it into the site in the past won't be deleted.
2. Series moderators have special roles, in that they can add new games into the series while bypassing the normal game request process. Since it can cause many issues in that series moderators can bypass the request rules, site staff don't give any series moderation anymore, to users who requested new smaller series. You can look at it like the site staff learning from its past mistakes. However, series moderators from past requested series are not automatically removed.
3. Site moderators are humans, and they could do mistakes. The site moderators have admitted that some games that were approved, would not be approved upon further examination.
4. Web, mobile and PC games (like free games on Steam or Itch.io) go under heavier scrutiny. There are hundreds of thousands games in those platforms, while games in older consoles are super limited in their numbers.

WhatsFrogWhatsFrog, Maste_RemMaste_Rem and 5 others like this. 
  Ren_MamamiaRen_Mamamia
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@Oreo321Oreo321

Though wasn't the reasoning for adding the "Too short / trivial" rule was because of the server resources being wasted on those games. Wouldn't it be better to have that rule be retroactively applied, so that the server resources aren't hogged up by abandoned Atari Classic games / any other games that violate that rule? Maybe your analogy of the "site learning from its past mistakes" would make more sense if you guys actually take action with making the site better, from your perspectives.

And look, I get it, asset flip games that would take advantage of series squatting shouldn't be allowed on this site. Though if the game is covered to the point of YouTubers with millions of subscribers start speedrunning it (also with a huge community surrounding it currently), shouldn't that game be the exception to the rule?

(Also to add that do you remember what happened with Atari Classic games (e.g., 2600 titles)? Maybe a huge crash in 1983 due to a huge wave of low quality titles from that console?)

blittzoblittzo likes this. 
  Oreo321Oreo321

First, I'm not a site moderator, I'm just relaying the answers that were given time after time in similar threads. About "taking action" against older games that were accepted on the site - there is a difference between not setting up a new leaderboard for a game, and outright deleting a leaderboard of a game where people have already posted speedruns.

QuivicoQuivico, IvoryIvory and 3 others like this. 
  Ren_MamamiaRen_Mamamia

@Oreo321Oreo321

Though if they're abandoned, shouldn't they be deleted since they are taking up resources?

blittzoblittzo likes this. 
  Oreo321Oreo321
(edited: )

Also, you mentioned that popularity of big YouTubers should be a factor. Right now it's not a factor, and I personally don't think it should be.
Assuming you meant Critikal, with his "Mr. Krabs" videos getting millions of views - well, Critikal being Critikal, will get millions of views on his videos no matter what game he will speedrun. He can theoretically pick up any of the short asset flip games out there, doing a speedrun of it and making a meme out of it, and other people will follow.
Should that new game be accepted to the site just because it gained "meme popularity"?

QuivicoQuivico, IvoryIvory and 3 others like this. 
  Ren_MamamiaRen_Mamamia
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@Oreo321Oreo321

A YouTube content creator with that size would be heavily trusted at that point. If they don't abuse their abilities, I don't see why they shouldn't be considered. And while yes, I understand that people with more power should be scrutinized (which is what I'm doing with the mods here), if they have enough trust to where they can, again, be responsible with their influence, then they should be taken into consideration.

"Should that new game be accepted to the site just because it gained "meme popularity"?"
Yes.

No, literally. Why shouldn't it be? If the game has a huge following to where major breakthroughs are made to get records with game, then yes it should be added. The mods shouldn't be having a stick up their ass just because a game is a "meme". By that definition, any games that have a devout meme culture status with a page on this website shouldn't be allowed.

PIECEofTOASTPIECEofTOAST likes this. 
  PearPear

This subject was already argued to death just a few days ago.

https://www.speedrun.com/speedrunning/thread/qzjmc

IvoryIvory and WalgreyWalgrey like this. 
  WalgreyWalgrey

@Ren_MamamiaRen_Mamamia

I should mention that IRL% for PSS is a joke category to an actual existing game. Many other games have IRL%-esque categories but the games were never accepted with those in mind. Rather, they were added as categories after the actual game was accepted.

QuivicoQuivico, IvoryIvory and 2 others like this. 
  DarQ_MassacresDarQ_Massacres

@Ren_MamamiaRen_Mamamia

In regards to MC Classic, as said above it was added by a series moderator a little while ago which site staff have no control over.

As for Atari games, I actually had replied to a thread about that a little while ago which you can find here:
https://www.speedrun.com/speedrunning/thread/aztst
And going on that, Atari 2600 is my favorite console ever made, followed closely by the GameCube, but the Atari 2600 is amazing in my opinion and all the games on it are not simply "low quality" and "able to be beaten in 5-10 minutes" Most Atari 2600 games are high score based and should not be on the site, however they were accepted under older rules regarding game requests. Some Atari 2600 games, like Dragster and Barnstorming for examples, are short games, but have huge followings in not only speedrunning but in high score communities as well.

But again, those games were added under previous rules and could possibly be denied now if they were requested.

QuivicoQuivico, IvoryIvory and 3 others like this. 
  thanksdudethanksdude

Mean a game with such a title, I wouldn’t be surprised it isn’t on the site.

victuvictu, HakoHako and 2 others like this. 
  PIECEofTOASTPIECEofTOAST

Since I'm not interested in running that game I wouldn't be incredibly bothered if I didn't see it, though I do want to mention something that I think is important when considering games like this, that I don't think has been considered too much by the mod team.

While short games are obviously trivial for experienced runners to an extent, I think it's a shame to dismiss all of them, regardless of popularity. Short or "trivial" games can be incredibly appealing to new and inexperienced runners, or people who have never speedran a game before, and simply put some people just enjoy that style of running more than longer runs. I know for me personally, I first started speedrunning with incredibly short games or ILs, because I was able to set goals that felt more achievable for me at the time that way. Beating Portal 2 or Minecraft or some other big game super fast can be daunting to a newbie, but a <30 second run can feel much more achievable, and even get people excited for running that weren't interested in it before.

The Youtuber "EZScape Speedruns" actually discussed this same topic today, and he made a suggestion that I thought sounded pretty great. For "meme" games like this, why not add a separate version of approval that is a bit more strict? Basically, allow the leaderboard to exist, but under the condition that if the Speedrun.com team runs into issues with it, it is subject to removal. For example, if the leaderboard dies off very fast, or if runs aren't getting approved properly, or foul play is happening etc. Instead of the mod team having to go in and "fix" it, they have the luxury of removing it at their own discretion.

Here is EZScape's video, I think it is worth a watch, and I hope the mod team gets a chance to see it.

blittzoblittzo, QuivicoQuivico and ckellyeditsckellyedits like this. 
  TimmiluvsTimmiluvs

Quote

For "meme" games like this, why not add a separate version of approval that is a bit more strict? Basically, allow the leaderboard to exist, but under the condition that if the Speedrun.com team runs into issues with it, it is subject to removal. For example, if the leaderboard dies off very fast, or if runs aren't getting approved properly, or foul play is happening etc. Instead of the mod team having to go in and "fix" it, they have the luxury of removing it at their own discretion.

I’m just gonna toss my two cents about this, but this idea makes no sense to me because leaving something up to the discretion of site staff is literally what has caused this problem in the first place.

Adding games to the site is up to the discretion of site staff - they decide when a game is worthy of being on the site. There are rules are tend to be followed and enforced (it’s a lot more consistent now then it was before), but at the end of the day, it’s up to them to decide what is acceptable and what isn’t. And that fact is what has caused this problem in the first place - users have been upset at the discretion staff has leveled against this game by deciding not to add it.

So, if all of these problems have been caused by people disagreeing with the discretion exercised by site staff, why would this solution make any sense? This solution gives site staff the ability to exercise discretion with even more dire consequences than ever before - the ability to delete an established LB. If this process was ever implanted, the first game to get deleted for whatever reason would result in MASSIVE complaints by the runners who would suddenly feel like all their hard work has been wiped away and they would probably feel very disrespected.

There would also be the issue of defining those rules and then enforcing them consistently in all scenarios. It’s hard enough to define these game request rules, and site staff does a pretty good job of enforcing them consistently nowadays, so defining rules around when to delete an LB would be even harder. Plus, this site prides itself on not deleting LBs and disenfranchising an established community (my view, not speaking for anyone).

While I can appreciate the effort to toss out an actual suggestion, it’s one that doesn’t actually fix the main issue behind all of this; if users don’t like site staff exercising their discretion to simply add games, how would they ever be okay with site staff gaining the discretion to wipe out an entire LB?

As a final note, I want to point people to this post in the OG thread for this issue:
https://www.speedrun.com/speedrunning/thread/qzjmc/5#1srr8

This post was added after the thread was locked so it may not have been seen by some, but staff is open to listening to appeals and overturning a game rejection if the outlined process is followed.

SymysterySymystery, QuivicoQuivico and 7 others like this. 
  SinsOfTheFatherSinsOfTheFather

So if these rules are supposed to keep people from moderating 100s of games, why does doodletones have moderator on TONS of games that he/she's never played. What the hell is this all about

blittzoblittzo likes this. 
  Lieutenant_BooLieutenant_Boo

Don't exaggerate. It's not "tons", it's barely 10. And most of those are because Doodle is the Super Mod for a series or the game is a "Minigame/Gamemode" for one of the games they run.

WalgreyWalgrey, thanksdudethanksdude and 2 others like this. 
  TimmiluvsTimmiluvs

The Game Request Rules are not designed to keep people from moderating a ton of games because you need to have an actual run of the game in order to request it (in other words, it's impossible to request a game, and thus gain moderator for it, without doing a run of it). The rules are designed to limit the amount of games on the site to help deal with resource management and to prevent site staff from being overburdened with issues in regards to low quality games/LBs.

That doesn't mean that users moderating games they know nothing about isn't a problem, it's just a problem that's independent from any issues/debates in regards to the Game Request Rules.

WalgreyWalgrey and PearPear like this.