Forums  /  Speedrunning  /  New Category: Canon or Canonized (Locked)
  Patrick_BarrettPatrick_Barrett
(edited: )

Just like @starsmileystarsmiley says you're basically requesting what already exists. And btw, glitched runs aren't cheating. If doing glitches is part of a game's category, then it's not cheating. If you have such problems with glitches, then don't do them and just do glitchless categories. Speedrun however you want. But don't go making public posts and automatically assume that glitches in general are cheating. But honestly I feel it's unnecessary for you to make a public post about something so nonsensical. Also it sounds like to me you have little to no understanding what speedrunning is really about

XenoPantherXenoPanther likes this. 
  LonneLonne

But a developer also intended the player to watch those cutscenes that they made, dont you think they would intend you to watch those cutscenes they put so much effort into making? Plus think of all the story and lore you miss out by not watching those cutscenes! How are you supposed to understand the canon if you dont take in all the cutscenes! 😱

XenoPantherXenoPanther likes this. 
  TimmiluvsTimmiluvs
(edited: )

Quote

Again, it's not hard to apply. There are literally only two categories of glitches: skips through out of bounds or some other mechanic that allows you to skip portions of the game - which is an obvious thing to be removed - and maneuvering glitches.

Quote

Lastly, please indicate another category of glitches.

In Ocarina of Time, a bomb blast knocks you slightly vertical and gives you horizontal momentum. This is a maneuvering glitch according your definition of those types of "glitches" being developer intended mechanics. However, through clever use of that mechanic to gain horizontal momentum to travel farther horizontally than normal, you can hit normally untouchable load zones allowing you to skip the entirety of the Trials in Ganon's Tower.

By your definition of glitches, this is a maneuvering glitch because it's a movement mechanic and should be allowed. However, it skips portions of the game which you said should be banned. Therefore, this technique violates your allegedly rock solid classification of a "glitch" as it can technically apply to both of your categories. This is your third type of "glitch" - an abuse of an intended mechanic that achieves a result that is completely unintended and skips portions of the game. This is why OOT bans the result of a technique rather than the technique itself, because of this weird definition of what a glitch actually is.

Finally, all of this is covered in that EZEscape video posted in the second post of this thread that you've clearly still not watched.

drybloxmandrybloxman and XenoPantherXenoPanther like this. 
  ketenksketenks

You don't understand. The word canon is a tool to understand how to do a speed run according to the way the game was made. It's not canon to the story. It's canon to the path of the game itself just like a race would be.

Utilizing the race analogy, if I'm on foot and you are on a pod racer and we run the same race then it doesn't really matter, the foot is the apple and the pod race is the orange. The means of our maneuvering was different. The Canon category simply says that everyone needs to run on foot where running on foot is analogous to using only the controls that the developer gives you in a way linearly moving. If you do speed boosts such as utilizing a grenade blast to boost you through or a roll cancel or a side jump and make a combination of those moves to go faster then by all means, you are still running on foot.

But if you stack those in an exponentiated way such that you go faster than the game actually allows you to go at all, then that would be a glitched maneuver like the pod racer. You have to use your head to understand just what would be linear (foot race) and what would be a pod race (exponential-ish).

It doesn't have to be defined. It can just be what is used in the Canon category for that game. But if you flow with the spirit of the category then it is quite sensible.

So then also, the path from A to B must be the proverbially canon path that the developers made, going from checkpoint to checkpoint while within the bounds of the game. And this would include cut scenes which you must watch if there is no means of pushing a button to skip it. Otherwise I would skip it to get a better time.

 
  drybloxmandrybloxman

So let's apply this idea to 2 popular speedgames.
Super Mario 64:
First off, 70 Star exists. However, you would be unable to do plenty of the timesaving tricks that people have developed in the ~24 years it's been released. Is owless in WF banned? It's not a glitch, but there's no way the devs intended you to get that TJWK at that angle to get into the cage. However, would owless from the top of the tower be banned? (This is used in non-stop, so it does apply) Would cannonless in WF be banned? I wouldn't say it's a glitch, even if it looks like it. You just extend your hitbox by grabbing a ledge, which is obviously a game mechanic. Let's say all those are banned, plus all the glitches. The run would be so unbelievably boring that nobody would do it. Even a glitchless category would suck.
Portal:
Once again disproving your point from earlier, 4 categories of glitches (Glitchless, Inbounds, OOB, Inbounds No SLA). I run Glitchless, and there's still a TON of really cool skips in the run that bypass whole puzzles. These make an otherwise stale playthrough of the game an extremely fun run, even though it's been broken beyond comprehension in other categories. By your definition of "canon/dev-intended" the camera-door strat in 18 would be banned, which skips a huge puzzle and minutes of the run.

If I'm understanding correctly, you are trying to add on to the restrictions of Glitchless to something completely arbitrary. If you want to do these runs, submit them to Glitchless. Also, you're calling glitches cheating (btw super uneducated and hated comment in the community) and that's "solved" with glitchless (which I absolutely love Glitchless runs in the right circumstances) you're suggesting with this category that skips/strats are cheating, while the vast majority of people in this community just see it as playing games fast. You can look through the runs and brag about having "Dev-intended" WR if that gives you satisfaction while everyone else is playing games fast and coming up with strats to further speedrunning as a whole.

 
  ketenksketenks

I know. But again, to do a race from point A to point B along a path is the race. To cut the path is cheating. That's just what it is. You can still do glitched runs as a category. That's perfectly fine but it can't be changed from the definition of what it means to cheat a race. You either give yourself boosts in your maneuverability to go faster than the competition through the aid of external equipment and not under your own power, or you do not actually run the entire path from point A to point B. That's it. Those are the only glitches possible and in ANY other context in the world its known as cheating. So call it what you want but it doesn't change what it is.

 
  LonneLonne

What about collectables btw? I would think the developer would intend on you getting all the collectables as well as watching all the cutscenes and not using glitches right?

XenoPantherXenoPanther likes this. 
  LivLiv
(edited: )

The path is discussed by the participants in the first place, though. What you're misunderstanding is this path was laid out by those very participants.

To cheat would be to dishonestly cut the path in a way that wasn't discussed prior.

XenoPantherXenoPanther likes this. 
  ketenksketenks

If the developer doesn't block access from not collecting collectibles then you move on but this is simply the distinction of Any% completion and 100% which we've known the entire time. So you can do Canon-Any% and Canon-100% runs just fine.

Glitched runs is just taking away the path from point A to point B that the developers had made. And so its not cheating within that category but it is cheating the actual game. The Canon category simply plays through that path.

 
  drybloxmandrybloxman

"External equipment"
This is cheating by almost all games' standards. No external equipment is being used in the performance of OOB tricks, saveglitching in Portal (which by the way is caused by tools given to you by the dev, repeatedly saving and loading) whatever glitch you give as an example. I can do all of these things on whatever console I want hot off the production line, no external device needed. As for your "point A->B" argument, there are plenty of games that do have you get from point A to point B, using the entire path, with glitches such as faster movement. Bunnyhopping in a lot of older first person games, and (because I'm familiar with it once again) ABHing in Portal. I can never leave the path, but still speed through by use of a glitch.
To help you understand, I'll lean into the race analogy more.
I'm going to run a mile against you. I put in hours of practice, grinding my time down further and further using the most optimal shoes, weather conditions, oxygen levels, and found what pacing works best for me, what style of movement works best, etc.
You just woke up on the day of the race and said "let's go fast" and ran it like we all did back in middle school.
There's a reason running was the first sport. It was simple to get into, but hard to master and become the best. People have found all sorts of subtle nuances with the sport (watch an analysis vid on the sub 2 hour marathon if you're interested) just as speedrunners have found all sorts of subtle nuances in our games. If you're a player who wants to speedrun games in a casual way, by all means, go for it. But nobody is going to accommodate that, because you should put in the work and learn all the different strats.

Patrick_BarrettPatrick_Barrett and XenoPantherXenoPanther like this. 
  ketenksketenks

The "external equipment" phrase was proverbial and not literally external equipment. It referred to the nature of the power that external equipment can bring. Basically, there are some maneuvering glitches that don't just give you nice looking shoes. They give you rockets. And these "exponentiated" maneuvering glitches FUNCTION like external equipment relative to the original tools you had.

So that is why I said, to put it in simple terms you should only be able to make linear gains of height and speed in your movement and not exponential gains; as a general benchmark for understanding what would be "canon" to the tools the developer gave you.

 
  drybloxmandrybloxman

Additionally, all these tricks aren't going to prevent you from getting a decent time, if placement on a leaderboard is what you care about (terrible mindset btw). I always say that not dying is the ultimate timesave. If you can get an optimal run with whatever strats you define as "canon" than you'll do better than someone who can't do any of it very well and still tries for it. This is the basis of learning a speedgame actually, starting off with doing little to no tricks, and adding to it as you get better and more confident.

XenoPantherXenoPanther likes this. 
  drybloxmandrybloxman

Well if you're given rockets, than everyone is given rockets. The point of categories is to give everyone the chance to play the game the way they want to play it. The book "Speedrun Science" by Omnigamer actually has a great section on making categories as well as glitches, I suggest you check it out. Categories are an even playing ground, and if you don't want to take advantage of the rockets given to you, that's fine.

XenoPantherXenoPanther likes this. 
  LonneLonne

But you said the runs would have to be done "as the developer intended", dont you agree that the developer would intend on the user getting all the collectables since they were put into the game with the intent of the player picking them up?

XenoPantherXenoPanther likes this. 
  ketenksketenks
(edited: )

To recap, the Canon category is playing by the rules of the game both in maneuverability (on foot proverbially) and the path from A to B (the bounds of the graphics of the game - not just the hitboxes but the graphics).

Play any game you want and define what maneuvers are illegal where maneuvers are defined as only coming from the input of the controller.

Those illegal maneuvers would simply be anything that "breaks" the game inherently by either changing the top speed the developers had allowed or given the character or by increasing the distance the character can move beyond what is normally seen and allowable through the game. Thus, most or all linear type gains of motion should be legal and all exponential type of gains of motion should be illegal.

These illegal moves can be set individually for each game within your Canon run and need not be defined on the whole.

Edit: as stated previously this category may be combined with Any% completion and 100% completion and 100+% completion.

 
  LonneLonne

You also mentioned earlier that "If the developer gives you a tool and you don't use it then you lose time." So by this definition i should be allowed to use cheat codes like infinite ammo or godmode or level select codes right? I mean the developer gave me that tool to use and i would obviously lose time due to not using those developer provided tools. Im also sure the developer intended us to use these tools at some point as well

XenoPantherXenoPanther likes this. 
  LivLiv

The category isn't going to exist unless each specific board deems it necessary to add, or even necessary to run in this manner in the first place.

XenoPantherXenoPanther likes this. 
  ketenksketenks

It's ok guys. Everything is going to be ok.

 
  ShikenNuggetsShikenNuggets
(edited: )

Great thread. Seems to have run its course.

Read some of the responses you got, learn more about speedrunning, and go do some "canon" runs.

XenoPantherXenoPanther likes this.