Forums  /  Shadow of the Colossus (2018)  /  Some notes about the rules: (Locked)
  NeurotakuNeurotaku

Since we're just getting started with the remake, the rules are probably going to be a little fluid for the next few weeks while we figure out things like where to start timing and whether or not to go by IGT.

I appreciate everyone's patience while we sort this stuff out.

A note on IGT vs. real-time: the ps4 streaming feature complicates the use of real-time as a timing convention, which was not an issue on previous versions of the game as the feature wasn't present. Feel free to weigh in here on which timing convention you think should be used and why.

ABigWetFlannelABigWetFlannel likes this. 
  EmeraldAlyEmeraldAly

I did some testing with IGT. The in-game timer definitely does not run during any cinematics , the period between the final blow on a colossus and the tendrils hitting Wander, or when the game is paused. I'm 100% sure of that. There's still a few seconds discrepancy -- I'd start my Livesplit upon gaining control, pause it when appropriate, go kill the first colossus, quitout after Dormin's intro to #2, and Livesplit would still be 8-10 seconds more than IGT. I let the game linger without me doing anything for 20 seconds -- 10 with the game open, 10 on the menus -- and IGT increased by 10 seconds.This all seemed consistent across 30 and 60 fps for PS4 Pro with SSD and ordinary PS4 with HDD.

I have no actual plans to run this game, but I wanted to help if possible 🙂

 
  6oliath6oliath
(edited: )

I'd like to say that even if you require RTA timing, there should be no obligation to show a timer on-screen.

First, the on-screen timer may not be accurate and is subject to user error. The video should be timed by the person verifying the run. They should NOT be relying on the user's submitted timer.

Second, this rule unfairly excludes those who would run the game who don't have a capture card.

The site admins have ruled on this issue before. It's not the player's job to show a third-party timer unless an autosplitter is required by the run, which is not the case here. They should use one if it's an RTA timing convention, but again, you should remove the rule stating that it has to be shown.

🙂 Good luck setting up the new boards, I know it's a lot of work.

 
  ABigWetFlannelABigWetFlannel

I would say that IGT would be the more reliable of the two, considering load times on ps4/ps4pro etc though I'm not entirely sure how IGT works in this version.
Either way though! New page looks great btw 😃

 
  EmeraldAlyEmeraldAly

I can't comment on PS4 Pro vs. stock PS4, as that's a variable I can't easily isolate, but PS4 Pro/SSD loaded dramatically faster than stock PS4/HDD. It did seem -- and let me stress I didn't put this to a timer -- that second loads on stock/HDD (that is, the second time since starting the game that I loaded up anew to go kill the first colossus) were a bit faster than first loads.

 
  goopermangooperman

Since there is a HUGE difference in loading times between the PS4 and PS4Pro, as long as the IGT is actually correct and we can figure it out entirely, I would vote to use that. But definitely not until we know exactly what it times.

 
  EmeraldAlyEmeraldAly

It's still possible that 8-10s I mentioned is just my operator error in not pausing the timer precisely when I'm supposed to. Even just in the first segment, there are 4 cinematics (approaching the cliffside before colossus #1, approaching the colossus himself, when he falls after stabbing the leg wound, and his death animation). In every test I've done, I've let them play in their entirety (since I know for certain the IGT doesn't start until you first gain control of Wander, I've been skipping the intro in my tests). If I'm a second off on each one (and I might be, moving hand from controller to pause key, and back), that might be the discrepancy right there.

 
  EmeraldAlyEmeraldAly

I think I've got it!! I retimed a recorded run and paused the timer any time the screen was "letterbox" thinking maybe that's what the game defines as a cutscene. My final time was only 1 second different from the IGT -- easily attributable to operator error.

So this does mean IGT is paused at times when you have control of Wander, and not just that cutscene of the first colossus falling down. Each cinematic "melts" out -- the letterboxing of the screen is a relatively slow fade back to making it full screen. This still occurs when you select "Skip Cinematic" from the pause menu or hold X to skip it.

I think I'll apply my findings to Distortion2's 1:29 run (btw, that run was verified when the other board had PS4 categories, why is it not on this one?) and see if I can accurately match the IGT for a full run. I'm not good enough at the game to test how advanced tricks might fuck with IGT, but hopefully we're getting an understanding here. I can go back and time loads on stock PS4 with HDD as well.

coolesttocoolestto likes this. 
  NeurotakuNeurotaku

Dist's run is not on this board because he hasn't resubmitted it.

 
  6oliath6oliath

Current rules: "external timer ... must be visible in the submitted video"

Why is this?

DefinitelyTravDefinitelyTrav and ninetailorochimaruninetailorochimaru like this. 
  ninetailorochimaruninetailorochimaru

So my question is, I am currently disabled and can not work, therefore I can not afford a capturecard and can only stream via my ps4. Am I shit out of Luck for doing a speedrun of this game, or can I edit the stream post and add a timer to It? I really want to be able to speedrun this game, and was told this might be a workaround? Just trying to get info. Stay Awes9me

6oliath6oliath, MrsLovettMrsLovett and AlexoAlexo like this. 
  AlexoAlexo

PS4 Twitch offers a timer during live stream (Up time). Assuming one can do the math after there would technically be a timer on screen to confirm exact timing in that case. So just say start time 0:00:07 End time 1:xx:xx 🙂

 
  DefinitelyTravDefinitelyTrav

I believe IGT should be used once it's accuracy is confirmed. I agree with 6oliath that it should not be required to show a timer on screen should RTA be used for timing. It's a ridiculous idea to rely on a manually started/stopped third-party timer for the times that show up on the leaderboard as they should be timed by the difference between the start and end point of the video or re-timed by the one verifying it.

coolesttocoolestto and 6oliath6oliath like this. 
  NeurotakuNeurotaku

Ninetail: Yes you may edit a timer into the existing twitch video before submission. We appreciate you accommodating the current ruleset in this fashion.

ninetailorochimaruninetailorochimaru likes this. 
  6oliath6oliath
(edited: )

@ROMaster2 says: "If a runner's encoding is competent, you can time a run from the video alone. An on-screen timer is not necessary in that case, just preferred."

He's a site mod. He opened up the topic you closed to post this, over on the SotC forums.

@kirkq says: ""Comment on timers:

For most games a run doesn't need a timer for accurate time tracking. The time on the timer splits is also commonly a second or two off the actual time of the run due to user error. The time of the run is actually the time of the gameplay, not necessarily the time on the timer.

A common exception to not needing a timer could be if a livesplit auto-splitter is used for time without loads. That would be a good reason to require a timer on the screen. If there's not a good reason to require a timer, it shouldn't be required. This seems to me to be what the majority of boards are doing."

In case you weren't aware, Kirkq is a site admin, he's the person who has been checking the mod removal topic, and he posted this there a few weeks ago. I don't know what kirkq's other areas are in terms of staff structure, but I know he does enforce standards like this one and the last time I brought up the issue and cited the quote you just closed the topic.

Please change the rules so that they're consistent with the rest of the site. There is no reason to force videos to include an on-screen third-party timer, since the mods should be timing the video.

@Neurotaku

 
  BobbykazeBobbykaze

The rules have been updated.

6oliath6oliath likes this. 
  6oliath6oliath

Well apparently I did need to!

Thanks for fixing the rules 🙂

 
  goopermangooperman

@6oliath can you please not be petty and refrain from baiting on our boards, please?

Also, are you even planning on running the game or being apart of our community, or are you just here to monitor and police our rules?

BobbykazeBobbykaze likes this. 
  6oliath6oliath
(edited: )

"6oliath can you please not be petty and refrain from baiting on our boards, please?

Also, are you even planning on running the game or being apart of our community, or are you just here to monitor and police our rules?"

You wanna talk about that here? In this topic? Well ok.

I run Titan Souls. It's often compared to Dark Souls, just because of the title, but once you play it you realize it's actually a lot more like 2D SotC. You should check it out! Our community is really welcoming. The game is a series of puzzle/action boss fights where you have to find each boss's weakness. The world is bleak and open, the protagonist is on this quest for ambiguous motivations, the music is great. It's considered to be a hard game to play casually, since you die in one hit, but once you know what to do it's a very accessible speedgame.

Unfortunately for me, the game pre-loads maps on ps4, but not on the PC version. So it's one of those rare cases where the game is faster on console than on PC. I am saving up for a ps4, but right now I occasionally use my friend's. He's been playing Destiny every night so I'm leaning toward getting my own. As a PC gamer there aren't a lot of ps4-exclusive games that have been on my radar, but SotC is an obvious choice for me, given that I play a 2D game inspired by it. (I'm also looking at Bloodborne.)

As it so happens, the console is very expensive where I live. Capture cards, especially HD ones, are also very expensive. I'm not going to be getting both anytime soon. I'm not just casually and vaguely looking for a new hobby; on the contrary, I'm a relatively established runner and even I would have to jump through the prohibitive hoops for my runs to comply with the old rules. What does that do for new runners?

Now.
I take issue with your reasoning and questioning.

If you're going to accuse me of baiting, then immediately interrogate me as to my intentions, I get that, but I'm not sure what kind of answer you're expecting. Are you trying to get me to say I'm not planning on running the game, so you can dismiss my criticism of how it's being managed? Are you hoping I'll say something stupid? I dunno what to tell you other than my sincere answer above. It seems like you're trying to escalate the situation.

Even so, if I had no intention of running the game and if I was just shopping around for my next speedrun project, this is an open forum and it is the most appropriate and visible place to discuss the rules and call for changes. It's odd that I have to remind you that this topic specifically called for people to weigh in, in light of this being a new board. My points on showing a timer were valid and no one else was raising them. That's nowhere near your ridiculous portrayal of me trying to police you.

I take issue with your use of the exclusive "our". This game and board is brand new. That itself calls for fresh perspectives from new and prospective runners. I wasn't aware I needed an invitation to "your" community. Yes, I am an outsider with regard to the original SotC running community. I follow one SotC runner at the moment. The former TLG WR holder is also the former Titan Souls WR holder. I have been lurking in the Discord for a while now. So I do actually have some ties to the community. If there's anything else I need to do to join the community, let me know. The elitism is a little off-putting, but you're an old group. At least, that's how I see you guys, and how I explain your resistance to changing the long-standing rules even on a new board.

Don't take it personally. I don't know you. But maybe you see where I'm coming from a bit better now.

 
  goopermangooperman

I understand where you are coming from. The reason I asked is because there are no rules that are determined by the site that span over every game. If there are it would be the obvious ones like cheating. Rules are defined by the community of the game and if the rules won't apply to you, then I would probably take your suggestion more lightly. That is why I asked you those questions.

"Apparently I did need to!" This is bait. Neuro isn't even a mod anymore and hasn't been for at least a few days before you made your long post with quotes from site mods. I'm a newer mod to the lineup but I'm sure they've discussed it in the past and we would've discussed it with or without your threat to tell Kirkq. I can see their reasoning for why they made the rules regarding external timers.
1. It IS easier on moderators (whether or not you think it's ethical or not is up to you)
2. It's not difficult to add one to an existing vod using livesplit and OBS.
3. For slower/more casual runs it's easier to go through the splits/colossi and look at the time to verify it's correct and makes verifying runs faster, meaning more runs can be verified in a shorter amount of time.

Now, since we've gotten more popular, I understand the want for the rule change. With more popularity comes more potential runners with restrictions in regards to PC limitations or no capture devices. But as long as you have a computer with the capability to run OBS and livesplit as well as your vod, you can time and split your own run. Since it's now "preferred" instead of required, there will be a lot of runs that aren't timed externally, thus slowing down the verification process for everyone. I'm not taking it personally nor escalating. Your points are valid and you're right, no one was bringing them up. But you didn't make it seem like you were a potential runner or someone that rule would even affect. Which is why I was asking if you were even a potential runner. I just think it's kind of off-putting when someone comes in here threatening to get site mods to enforce rules that haven't been questioned until they were by you, someone who didn't make an intention to run the game themselves, only a week ago.

6oliath6oliath likes this.