Updates to the game (August 30, 2020)
3 years ago
Chile

READ ANSWERS BEFORE COMMENTING, PLEASE!

Hi all! In this topic we will talk about two things: Individual Levels and Single Segments.

I. Individual Levels (ILs)

The Sonic Center (TSC) is Sonic's competitive home, but the submission option has been disabled since March. For this reason that now practically all the games in the series have Individual Levels on Speedrun.com (SRC).

The main strength of Sonic Riders are the Time Trials (Individual Levels) and in TSC are the best times, with 105 players and it is the 8th game with the most competitive weight in ILs. Competitive history has had good and bad moments of activity, currently bad. SRC has only had Single Segments so far, but now it will have an IL with videos.

The main objective that must be met in the implementation of ILs is to respect the competitive history of the game. Every decision must take that into consideration. SRC ILs will not replace TSC ILs (TSC ILs will remain official).

ILs proposal:

I have read a very important argument in some place: "Glitchless decision may cause conflict of interest." This is why I see viable that Pauseless can be good, but here I have my doubts. I ask all of you: What do you think of the following categories?

Categories:

  1. Glitched
  2. Pauseless
  3. No Ultra

Subcategories:

  1. Three Laps
  2. Single Lap

Only Time Attack. LRG banned in the three categories. With Control Filter: Keyboard and Controller.

No Ultra rules:

  • The use of glitches (Auto Slider Glitch, Pause Buffering Glitch, Ice Factory Respawn Glitch, and Lap Respawn Glitch) is NOT allowed.
  • The use of Auto Slider fly strats is NOT allowed.
  • The use of intentional pauses is NOT allowed.
  • The use of the following skips is NOT allowed: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNEiwNpGlagkS2g6_RnCcK3FTsDiAqxLH
  • The use of any other skip is allowed.

Pauseless rules:

  • The use of glitches (Auto Slider Glitch, Pause Buffering Glitch, Ice Factory Respawn Glitch, and Lap Respawn Glitch) is NOT allowed.
  • The use of Auto Slider fly strats is NOT allowed. The use of any other skip is allowed.
  • The use of intentional pauses is NOT allowed.

The only bad thing about choosing Pauseless is that the game will never have Glitchless, but I think it can be a fair decision. The 2 previous Glitchless options are not to the liking of today's community. Glitchless post2017 is not possible because there is no consensus. Before 2017 there was consensus.

CLARIFICATION FOR FUTURE QUESTIONS:

a) Regardless of the decision, High Booster is the fastest gear. A Gear with 250 Speed will not beat the best High Booster time, regardless of a Glitchless or Pauseless category. Only exception: Auto Slider fly strats. This referred to Snfn's comment.

b ) The Sonic saga does not allow Mods. The only exception is SADX if I'm not wrong, because it is a necessary Mod. Therefore, Mods are not allowed in Riders. If someone in the future wants to insist on Mods, I suggest talking to an Admin of the series. No responsibility for the Riders moderation.

_

There will be a special filter. Gear Filter will have these options: High Booster, Auto Slider, Darkness, Default Gear, Other Gear. The runs will not be obsolete with each other, so a player will be able to upload up to 5 different runs without problems, and they will all be shown by default.

This structure is practically defined. Very difficult to change.

Now, 1 thing remain to be decided: the use of emulators.

  1. Use of emulators

If there are a good number of players who are willing to participate using emulator, could be allowed to use it in ILs. Now is the time to find out exactly how many will want to play with emulators (Dolphin).

In the case of allowing emulators in ILs, special rules will be created:

  • Only stable version of Dolphin emulator are allowed.
  • No replay of your earlier attempt is allowed to be submitted.
  • FPS Counter and upper window bar must be shown on the video.

The only exception would be Sewer's Night Chase run, because it is the best High Booster NC run and was obtained before these rules. And it is important to consider it. There will be no other exceptions.

The “270 Speed Start” and “Boost Chain” techniques are allowed in both, because they are not skips.

The argued opinion of any player will be heard. The decision will be based on the opinions and arguments.

Remember: the deadline is 4 days.

_ _ _

II. Single Segments

The most important change in SSs is that the Control Filter now exists. Now you can see the best Controller runs. However, only the best run per player is considered (independent if it is with Keyboard or Controller).

Depending on the participation, we can create 3 Misc. Categories: Heroes World Grand Prix, Babylon World Grand Prix, All Missions. To create one of these categories, a minimum of three players will be required.

We welcome any suggestions, including any ideas on how to implement IGT or Loadless.

Sorry for my grammar mistakes. My native language is not English and the text is very long.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Vermont, USA

Hey guys.

I have chatted with sm4sh about the topics above.

a) both keyboard and controller have distinct differences that separate them. A bit surprised myself that it's enough to split them.

b) we can still access a gamecube, xbox, ps2, etc. so an emulator isn't needed. Since an emulator can eliminate game issues from consoles and maybe from pc (never played, so idk about that), I agree that emulators should be banned.

c/d) "Nathan is the best with High Booster" super offended anyway, with talks with sm4sh and reviewing the lists of skips that he gave me, I am going with the first option of not including skips after 2017.

e) i have no knowledge with that. You do you, guys.

I need to get a gamecube again and retake my title back. Wasn't #1 for 8 years for nothing. :)

Sm4sh likes this
Chile

Thanks for your comment, Greycatmon. Oh, I forgot to specify. It is not necessary to answer the questions, they are only "possible questions".

What we need to know if the players are satisfied with this implementation (and how it will happen).

United Kingdom

Heyo. I'm glad you're letting in IL runs. That's a big step up.

However.

Honestly the choices made against skips found post 2017 is quite silly. All you're doing is forcing people to pick high booster. Which for you guys is the better choice apparently cause diversity is something you guys don't want.

All you're doing is banning skips you don't like. keeping high booster meta.

Which is bad imo. keeps speedruns boring and samey.

What's wrong with gear diversity?

I STRONGLY advise letting post 2017/post tournament edition skips.

Seems kinda elitst as well.

Also regarding controller equality:

Sewer 56 has developed a mod loader that is compatible with pc riders. Letting people mod the game. And a big mod is letting controllers do the QTE glitch that keyboard can do.

And simulates the type of control you would have with dolphin. So no 6 frame smoothing on keyboard. If you let this through we wouldn't need 2 categories for controller and keyboard. Making the board much more inclusive.

Which is a good thing. This doesn't give any distinct advantage. You're just using a controller you like. More people will run the game too. Cause the keyboard controls on PC Vanilla are hot doo doo.

The modloader github page: https://github.com/Reloaded-Project/Reloaded-II

The Sonic Riders controlle hook and others that go with it: https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/11681 https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/11661

Edited by the author 3 years ago
ludiyolo252 likes this
Vermont, USA

gear diversity in sonic riders is like kart diversity in mkdd. Both have one vehicle that is better than the rest. We took advantage of devs' oversight.

Heck, even the game I need to run again, LEGO Racers 1, has one distinct chassis that is better than the rest. Veronica Voltage over Rocket Racer. Rocket Racer can be used as well, but it's weight holds it too far back to keep up with Veronica Voltage.

I outright refuse anything from TE into the original game, even if it can be replicated in the original.

"Seems kinda elitst as well." I can't take you seriously if you devolve into insults.

United Kingdom

That wasn't an insult. It is elitist. That's a fact You're refusing to adapt to a new era of sonic riders because you're stuck in the past with high booster.

Times have changed.

Definition of elitist: a person who believes that a society or system should be led by an elite. example: "I outright refuse anything from TE into the original game, even if it can be replicated in the original."

Source: Google and your previous post

There's nothing wrong with having a one sided meta. The issue is that you and the team have decided that you're not going to allow TE skips cause you refuse to adapt.

So really you just suck. That's an insult You're washed A high boomer so to speak.

It's not respecting the game to choose to ban new skips. In fact it's a disrespect to an even bigger Riders project. TE. A FAT shade.

TE's dev team is pioneering the current state of riders.

What's wrong with newer skips? What's the issue? Give me an actual good reason beyond because you don't like it and refuse to adapt.

You're really going to argue that you're not being elitist? You're saying the game shouldn't change from when you played it.

You're gatekeeping fun.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
ludiyolo252 likes this
New Brunswick, Canada

Well, sorry to say, but you're gonna have a lot less players running and updating their runs if you ban skips simply because they weren't discovered before an irrelevant date in time. The origin of a skip is irrelevant if it can be accomplished on an unmodified copy of the game.

Never have I seen a speedrun board do anything like this. I can understand banning game breaking bugs and the like, because those risk damaging the game irreparably. But banning a skip just because it was discovered prior to an irrelevant time in relation to the original game is not how speedrunning works. The point of speedrunning is running a game or stage beginning to end as fast as possible, regardless of the original intent of the developers. If that requires abusing level design, glitches, and any other array of techniques, it's all fair game. The skips discovered thanks to the spike in popularity that TE brought are the exact same as the skips found before TE was made relevant. They are abuses of level design with the intention of completing the game faster, no more, no less.

By actively banning skips discovered in Tournament Edition, you are harming the development of runs, and actively hindering the improvement of your runners. If option 1 to ban ALL skips from 2017 onward is decided upon, that ALSO means that if any of YOU discover a new skip, it is also banned. If any new discoveries are made by any of YOU while improving your runs, that run is disqualified. This will result in a solid ceiling with no room for improvement. If option 2 is selected, it will remove the skill ceiling that option 1's artificial limitation creates.

Make your choice, but know that option 1 will actively harm this game. Limiting people by forcing them to use outdated skips, or ignore new, better routing due to the skip involved being banned will not help the game in the slightest. It will only harm the people that want to get into speedrunning.

sewer56lol, ludiyolo252, and Snfn like this
New Brunswick, Canada

Though, honestly, having gone back and re-read the options, they're both bad. There shouldn't be any limitations on skips period if they're doable in Vanilla. Again, false skill ceiling.

sewer56lol likes this
United Kingdom

Hi, I'm a bit tired but before I nap, I'm going to state a few things. This post may not be as complete as I wish it could be but here goes.

Firstly I would like to talk on a technical detail or two, since it's 2020 and it seems people are still unaware of how the game works with regards to input; so allow me to explain.

= PC Keyboard = Analog Range: Square

Analog is not binary 0/1, instead it interpolates based on frames held. It works in the following logic:

  • Up/Down and Left/Right have a range of -256 to 256.
  • Every frame direction is held, the turning amount gets incremented by 15.
  • If no button is pressed in U/D or L/R direction, the turning amount is instantly reset to 0.

To illustrate, suppose you hold right on your keyboard:

  • Frame 1: 15 (5.8% Turning)
  • Frame 2: 30 (11.7% Turning)
  • Frame 3: 45 (17.6% Turning) ...
  • Frame 17: 255 (99.6% Turning)

This method of control has both advantages and drawbacks. A clear drawback is that you can't turn as sharply as controllers or keyboard on GC. A benefit is you are able to turn while keeping max speed, this is useful and saves time in places like tunnels in Metal City.

= PC Controller = Analog Range: Square

Some controllers such as the Dualshock 3 can reach the corners of the analog, i.e. inputting 100% Right 100% Up, the game allows this on PC.

= Console Controller = Analog Range: Circle!

The analog range on console is smaller than on PC. To state it clearly: on controller you can turn harder on pc than on console.

Your inputs start in a square range like on PC.

In order to constrain it to a sphere, the game performs an operation <x,y> / sqrt(x^2 + y^2); i.e. it converts both the X and Y components of your analog inputs into a "unit vector".

This "unit vector" has a length of 1 relative to the center thus is constrained into a circle. All you have to do is multiply it again by the length of the original <x,y> vector (pythagoras' theorem) to get the original inputs mapped onto a circle.

So I would like to reiterate. Because your analog stick range is smaller on console, you are at a disadvantage because you can't turn as hard (unless you can hold your stick perfectly to the side). Playing controller on PC should be more optimal as long as the assumption that you can perform QTEs just as quick on PC as on console holds true.

The opening post tries to claim that you can turn sharper on GCN than on PC. This is not the case as seen above and is most likely a misinterpretation of the fact keyboard players can turn faster on GCN than on PC due to a lack of smoothing.

It also tries to claim that controllers on Dolphin could have a better response time than hardware. This could never be the case without rollback, where the emulator tries to predict user input and emulate frames ahead of time, rolling back if it guessed incorrectly. Regular consumers do not have the hardware to handle rollback and Dolphin does not support it. In practice, emulators actually tend to have higher input lag than hardware.

I do agree that it is unfair to rebind keys when comparing to console players however the PC version does offer limited controller rebinding. Technically speaking, more advanced rebinding on PC could be achieved by using a virtual controller without modifying the game (e.g. Universal Controller Remapper). That is undetectable and could not be moderated (without enforced handcam).

I will voice my own opinion about the whole ordeal later but here is at least the more technical part. I wanted to clear up some technical misconceptions by only stating facts here.

tl;dr

PC Controller better than Console Controller as long as you can QTE as fast. PC Keyboard is a special child that behaves in a special way. Some other points.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Snfn and Greycatmon like this
Chile

Thanks for your comments. It is important that all of you give your opinion.

I have read a very important argument in some place: "Glitchless decision may cause conflict of interest." This is why I see viable that Pauseless can be good, but here I have my doubts. I ask all of you: What do you think of the following categories?

Categories:

  1. Glitched
  2. Pauseless
  3. No Major Skips

Subcategories:

  1. Three Laps
  2. Single Lap

Only Time Attack. LRG banned in the three categories. With Control Filter: Keyboard and Controller

"No Major Skips" will ban the most broken skips (banning Glitches and Pauses as well). There will be a list with approx 6 banned skips.

The only bad thing about choosing Pauseless is that the game will never have Glitchless, but I think it can be a fair decision. The 2 Glitchless options are not to the liking of today's community. Glitchless post2017 is not possible because there is no consensus. Before 2017 there was consensus.

Tomorrow I will work on the "No Major Skips" list. The initial deadline is 3 days, but for each day that I delay in this, the deadline will be extended with 1 more day.

CLARIFICATION FOR FUTURE QUESTIONS:

a) Regardless of the decision, High Booster is the fastest gear. A Gear with 250 Speed will not beat the best High Booster time, regardless of a Glitchless or Pauseless category. Only exception: Auto Slider Broken Skip. This referred to Snfn's comment.

b ) The Sonic saga does not allow Mods. The only exception is SADX if I'm not wrong, because it is a necessary Mod. Therefore, Mods are not allowed in Riders. If someone in the future wants to insist on Mods, I suggest talking to an Admin of the series. No responsibility for the Riders moderation.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Snfn and AirKingNeo like this
Chile

The first post has been updated. The new proposal looks good. The use of emulators is pending discussion. Keep giving your opinions.

United States

Glad we could come to a much better consensus on the category rules. These make much much more sense.

No Major Skips will be pleasing to Greycatmon since he does not like Auto Slider Fly Glitch. Although, him saying, "I outright refuse anything from TE into the original game, even if it can be replicated in the original." is pretty elitist. Its basically saying "new discovers aren't allowed" from the new players, which is elitist. Elitist isn't an insult though. Sometimes its a good thing, like for Pokemon Showdown where you need to reach a certain ranking before being able to vote. Its just in case, the type of elitism is senseless.

Maybe there will be interest in a 4th, Skipless Category, which bans any movement that is OOB (out of bounds) or clips through an object. Though, some stages would be the exact same with "No Major Skips".

Vermont, USA

I will say it's been a long while since I've played the game competitively, so I'm going with what i still know and holding on to my beliefs about any major skips. Losing my title and my forced retirement after the Auto Slider glitches killed my drive and passion, since DsS and I both knew that TSC wouldn't do anything about it. The event probably traumatized me enough to be a strict traditionalist in the sense that zero OoB strats are used, exception being Splash Canyon ring skip. That, and I want to go around the track as intended with my skill and knowledge. Cheating with the OoB goes against what I set out to do; beat the track as fast as possible legitimately.

I should clarify about TE is that the changes to the boards, especially ring boards, angered me so much that I flat out removed it from my computer and cut off all communication to the discord server, save for sm4sh. If I wanted to play casual, I'll play the frickin Hang-On bike. Have you not noticed yet that I can be extremely competitive? :/

I'll apologize for my aggressive stance regarding my quoted statement that Neo grabbed. Context sometimes escapes my mind when emotions run high. Recent events in my personal life have thrown my emotions into a state of disarray and it's hard to focus on more than one or two topics. Moving sucks.

I am wondering how I'm going to be able to get a copy of the game and not upset my new neighbors from swearing profusely and pounding my fists against the desk until they bleed. Time to be an insufferable jerk again :)

Indiana, USA

yeah this all sounds good to me.

Personally I think emu should be allowed in some regards because a large majority of the active riders speedrunning community currently already plays on either emu or pc. I'd say though that if emu was in, there should be consideration for a handful of quality of life codes enabled (such as widescreen, disable motion blur, potentially texture mods). I'd also like to see the auto-qte code for emu, but that effects gameplay, and not everyone would have access to it so I would understand if that particular code was not allowed (even though it does balance emu to pc quite nicely).

as for major skips found in strictly in/for te, most of these skips either benefit high booster more than other gears, or are completely irrelevant to high booster. 2 great examples of these is Red Canyon's "Speed skip" and Green Cave's "Anti ramp skip". The skip on red canyon is a little useless on high booster because you spend an entire boost just for a small time save in comparison to standard power routing. The skip on green cave however saves around the same amount of time as red canyon's skip did, but it heavily favored gears with higher boost costs. Both skips save time around the 3-4 seconds level of time, but skips vary in power based off the gear they are attached to. Obviously there are probably better examples, but these two came to mind. There are also a few skips that are tournament edition only (such as the half rail grind hop, or a handful of the fly skips thanos car has been finding), but these are mostly due to the unique mechanics of te, and how a lot of gears have been buffed up to at least darkness level of performance. I'll make sure to point out if you listed any te only stuff as a major skip though

Skipless would be cool, idk if I'd play it, but its cool. I personally plan on getting at least a few runs in once I finish the trek of unlocking everything in the game (no I'm not getting a save file from the internet, I'm doing it myself because I'm a big boy and holy goodness its gonna be a pain to unlock everything in the shop might as well do some time trialing to unlock stuff).

something something can't wait to watch snfn demolish the wr for red canyon, man can consistently x rank the last ramp (from what I've seen at least)

New Brunswick, Canada

@Greycatmon "I should clarify about TE is that the changes to the boards, especially ring boards, angered me so much that I flat out removed it from my computer and cut off all communication to the discord server, save for sm4sh. If I wanted to play casual, I'll play the frickin Hang-On bike. Have you not noticed yet that I can be extremely competitive?"

Can I have some reasoning behind that? I would hardly call the changes that have been made "casual". It added much needed variety to the game as opposed to what was originally "every gear is copy paste default with a few gimmicks here and there and slightly different stats". There is also, of course, changes to extremely polarizing gears such as the High Booster, nerfing it to a level that it isn't objectively broken, and even then it's still a top tier gear. I don't understand how these changes could anger you so much that you dropped it immediately when it did nothing but make what is, objectively, improvements to the gear selection through variety. TE is, to date, the most competitive scene for Sonic Riders, with tournaments being held weekly and majors being held every few months, with more players in one tournament than there are runners on this board. Your complaint against it being casual hardly holds water when TE was created to make the game more competitive, and give it more variety.

You saying your reference to "I outright refuse anything from TE into the original game, even if it can be replicated in the original." was in reference to the gears also makes little sense when the post was in reference to skips, which is solidified by the "replicated in the original" part. I see no reason for that quote to be about gears if that's the truth, but if that is the case, that means it has nothing to do with the skips and those are perfectly fine. But that isn't the case because that's contradicted by your original post of banning everything found in TE in relation to skips. I understand it may have been made in times of stress where emotions were high, but it's hard for me to take things concretely when you're contradicting yourself between two messages. I'm a logical person, I accept logical responses, but if those responses or statements contradict themselves, I'll ask more questions. I would like answers, if you're willing to give them.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
ludiyolo252 likes this
Chile

Emulators:

If a lot of players use GCN Emu (Dolphin), it is a good reason to allow emulators. However, right now I only remember 2 runs using Dolphin without cheat / code: Sewer Night Chase (best High Booster time) and Protag Babylon Guardian (top 10 time). There are very few runs, that is the problem.

If there are a good number of players who are willing to participate using emulator, could be allowed to use it in ILs. Now is the time to find out exactly how many will want to play with emulators (Dolphin).

In the case of allowing emulators in ILs, special rules will be created:

  • Only stable version of Dolphin emulator are allowed.
  • No replay of your earlier attempt is allowed to be submitted.
  • FPS Counter and upper window bar must be shown on the video.

The only exception would be Sewer's Night Chase run, because it is the best High Booster NC run and was obtained before these rules. And it is important to consider it. There will be no other exceptions.

_ _

"No Major Skips / No Ultra" and Pauseless:

First, in order to have the same nomenclature between Riders 1 and Zero Gravity, the "No Major Skips" category will be called "No Ultra". For context, Ultra is the name that some ZG players gave to the most broken skips in ZG.

No Ultra rule:

  • The use of glitches (Auto Slider Glitch, Pause Buffering Glitch, Ice Factory Respawn Glitch, and Lap Respawn Glitch) is NOT allowed.
  • The use of Auto Slider fly strats is NOT allowed.
  • The use of intentional pauses is NOT allowed.
  • The use of the following skips is NOT allowed: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNEiwNpGlagkS2g6_RnCcK3FTsDiAqxLH
  • The use of any other skip is allowed.

Pauseless rule:

  • The use of glitches (Auto Slider Glitch, Pause Buffering Glitch, Ice Factory Respawn Glitch, and Lap Respawn Glitch) is NOT allowed.
  • The use of Auto Slider fly strats is NOT allowed. The use of any other skip is allowed.
  • The use of intentional pauses is NOT allowed.

_

Now is the time for suggestions. In addition, it is important that we know how many want to participate using Dolphin.

sewer56lol and ludiyolo252 like this
Vermont, USA

I think i'm just going to back down now. My knowledge of the game makes me a has-been. I'm too stuck in obsolete strats land. bye

Protagonist likes this
New York City, NY, USA

"I think I'm just going to back down now. My knowledge of the game makes me a has-been." Well said Greycatmon... well said.

Tanguito and ludiyolo252 like this
New Brunswick, Canada

I'll give my final thoughts on the manner (this time without focusing on shutting down Greycatmon).

ahem

I agree with the rulesets Smash made in his recent post. No Ultra and Pauseless seem like the best way to go, so long as there's a "free" category that permits the use of all skips without limitation as well. This means that there's 3 categories for 3 different types of runners. Pauseless for people that want to play the game beginning to end without abusing the game too hard, No Ultra for people that want to have a relatively normal run of the game, and No Limits for people that want to push the game to its limits. In the end Speedrunning has always been about the latter, and the more options for running the game, the better, imo.

Indiana, USA

I know I'll be playing on my pc version of the game, but there's people in the te server who might not have access to the pc version, but do have access to dolphin. I think the accessibility of the game will be a major boon, and make it possible for nearly everyone to be able to sit down, record, and upload a speedrun of sonic riders.

Also, the major skips list looks good to me. Any "ultra" fly bonk skip (like the one you can do on red canyon) should maybe also be listed, but that's basically the auto slider/pause skip with a couple of extra steps. If I were to make a suggestion to the major skips, I'd add this skip in: (Night Chase Skip) and by extension, this one: (Night Chase Skip death variant)

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Kamanira and Sm4sh like this