Is 11 Exit Dead? - Choosing a Speed Game
6 years ago
Michigan, USA

I’ve not researched it extensively by any means, so I may make myself look foolish, but I’m wondering what time saves are left in 11 Exit, and whether or not it would it be worth it to put a lot of time into the category.

I ask this mainly because I’m trying to decide what game to speedrun. I’d like it to be a 2D Mario game, which I realize are all quite optimized. In SMW, I’m currently working on consistency in getting the cloud and would consider putting significant time into RTA’s, but am not sure if I would ever get close to the record. What I’m mainly worried about would be investing my time only to be working towards a record that could be improved by a couple seconds or less.

Since I’m much more knowledgable about SMB1, I’ll use that as an example. There are already elite runners (darbian, Kosmicd12, andrewg1990, and somewes) at the top of that game, just as there are in SMW. They’ve put thousands of hours in and their records are extremely optimized. darbian himself has said that once any% reaches 4:55, it is essentially dead. This is one of the main reasons I’ve stayed away from running SMB1 myself, especially any%. It would be like running a marathon only to find a insurmountable wall just before the finish line. Sure, you ran 26.19 miles, but there’s something significant about the last .01.

Maybe one would say I have the wrong attitude about speed running if I’m only looking for records and good times. Maybe one would say I’m being unrealistic. I do genuinely enjoy running SMW, but I also see the value in running a game that even a beginner has the ability to develop if he invests enough time into it.

I know I got slightly off topic, but any advice on decision making would be appreciated, as well as any specific remarks on 11 exit.

United States

Dead? Not at all. But I wouldn't expect to get anywhere close without putting months or maybe even years of time into it.

Missouri, USA

Yes I agree it's not dead. We have a long ways to go with time save, Especially if a more RTA viable method of Stir clipping is found.

North Carolina, USA

I don't have a lot of input to provide on the secondary topic: the time saves remaining, without new discoveries, are small. C1 pswitch jump is the biggest one that comes to mind. But for the main topic about picking up SMW, I'd strongly caution you against the mindset that a lot of new speedrunners get into that you should pick up a speedgame in pursuit of WR. There is a lot of undue value place on WR and new runners get conned into this WR culture, where the only thing that matters is getting the top time. If you choose your games based on that criteria, you're going to miss out on a lot of fun, rewarding, challenging games. If you're looking to innovate, SMW still has room for it. New things are discovered often enough. It isn't dead by any means. But let speedrunning be about self-improvement rather than getting caught up in this rat race to the top. There are more spots on the leaderboard than just #1.

cornucanis, KingOfJonnyBoy and 30 others like this
British Indian Ocean Territory

Your definition of a category being "dead" doesn't make much sense to me. A category isn't dead when it gets a great run. It's dead when no one cares to improve it. By that measure, 11 exit is surely not dead right now. It had a WR just about 2 weeks ago, and probably more to come relatively soon.

If anything 11 exit is more alive right now than it has been in some time. A new strat was found in the ghost house where one gets doorfly into the second room and flies under the boo ring. (Not to toot my own horn but I am the one who found this strat and it was first implemented with some slight modifications in glitchless runs by SilverStar and later in cloud runs by Area51.) Assuming you are not doing stair clip (which isn't consistent at all and hasn't been in a WR run in a long time if ever) it also allows a faster room 1 strat, which overall saves about 0.6s. The current WR includes this strat but beat the previous WR by only about 0.3s, so it's actually executed worse than the previous run when the strat improvement is taken into account, meaning there's relatively free timesave now whereas there wasn't much before.

In the coming weeks it would not be surprising if a 9:44 happened, and 9:43 is at least plausible with current RTA strats if extremely difficult. Beyond that you are looking at p-switch jump, stair clip, ultra-fast zips, SW4 shell strat, and other (highly inconsistent but in principle possible) timesaves. A human theory "perfect" run with all the fastest strats is solidly sub 9:40 at this point though it is inconceivable that anyone would pull off a run with all the fastest strats.

Also, I'd agree with auth that, especially for a new runner, focusing too much on WR is a bad idea. The vast majority of people running a game like SMW will never be WR holders and still have fun. Even getting sub 9:50 will require an immense amount of time and effort. Getting to WR level means beating out folks like Area51, xpaco5, and RetroBob, who have 3-5 years of experience and comparable amounts of time in this game to the people you listed in SMB1; it isn't something you can do in just a couple months.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
333Rich333, limchi and 9 others like this
New Mexico, USA

As mentioned before, 11-exit is far from dead, and TLD and authorblues more than clarified that.

Whether, as a beginner, you decide to pursue WR or not, what's wrong with popping in a game and seeing how fast you can beat it? That's how I got into speedrunning, and I'm sure that's how many of us here did as well. I did not know or care what the WR was when I started playing, and while I recognize WRs are a testament of hard individual work and community optimization, I don't view them as anything more than a nice model of a run to learn and improve on. Speedrun for your personal satisfaction. If that means chasing a WR or just completing a deathless or decent run, so be it.

Canada

Hey Blues,

https://twitter.com/authorblues/status/958716502361952257

"WR Culture is actively, not passively, harmful to the speedrunning community and I will always oppose it. It hurts growth and encourages destructive mentalities."

Since you kindly asked me not to QRT you anymore, I will respond in here, where it is a far more productive place to converse anyways... (I'd argue SpeedTwitter culture is more harmful to the speedrunning community than WR culture ever will be...) But here's some food for thought:

The-elite is probably the most WR-centric speedrun community in the world. Hell, most of your hobbyist lot despises us simply for the name, "the-elite," which some 15 year olds gave the community back in 1999. The-elite also has optimized Goldeneye so extremely, to a point where only the absolute best of the best, usually the top 8, have any chance at getting an untied WR. The vast majority of new players in Goldeneye & Perfect Dark do not ever have a chance at getting an untied WR and settle for personal bests in the range of top 50 or top 30.

Explain to me how, if WR culture is so toxic, how can the-elite, where most newcomers never stand a shot at getting any untied WR, have thrived and healthily grown for the past two decades? We celebrate our great records like no other community, and put tons of emphasis on them, yet most players are content never getting a WR in their life. Why?

Is it POSSIBLE, I mean just maybe possible, that it's because the-elite has a great rankings system and fosters competition & rivalry even amongst players ranked 50th or 100th, who will never get a WR in their life? Isn't that what speedrunning is about anyways? Self improvement and healthy competition, even if it's against those at your own level, rather than world class competition? I think we actually agree on this much.

So why can't other communities lead in the same way? Why are other communities so bad at eliciting to newcomers that "hey man, it's not all about the WRs, play the game, improve, learn, enjoy, compete, climb the rankings, learn how to better yourself, and have fun"?

Maybe if the communities in the games you play aren't able to espouse these sorts of ideals onto new players, it's time to take a look the mirror and realize what YOU are doing wrong. Don't blame this on some kind of "toxic WR culture" when it's your own fault for not being able to teach people who aren't getting WRs how to compete and have fun.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Ace, CycloneFN and 4 others like this
United States

I think that some of the people in this thread are wrong to say that WR as a goal is a bad mindset to have. People have very different motivations when it comes to speedrunning and what you choose to make your end goal should be decided by you and you alone. People like me, who like the competitive aspect even more than the self-improvement aspect of learning a game, can find going up in the leaderboards to be an amazing tool for motivation and avoiding burnout. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be the best at something, as long as you don't develop a toxic mindset around it.

You can use chasing records as a motivational tool but you need to understand some things:

  1. "I’m mainly worried about would be investing my time only to be working towards a record that could be improved by a couple seconds or less" is a horrible way to think about WR improvement. A record that you could improve by a huge chunk of time, unless the game is hours long, is probably a record someone like you would not want to grind for. You specifically said you are looking for records and good times, and a good time doesn't have more than a couple of seconds to lose in this category. Using your later example of running, you are wrongly referring to this category (and other shorter 2D Mario categories) as marathons when they are sprints. Ussain Bolt still dedicates his entire life to running despite being able to improve the record by literally hundredths of a second. If WR is your only goal, there are plenty of games with "free" WRs that you can take today, but I don't think your goal is to just have WR but a time you can be proud of.

  2. You need to be realistic. You are setting out to get a WR in a game that is incredibly optimized and the barriers are high. This is a longterm goal and you need to think of it this way. Someone who is not sure it is worth it to even grind for WR due to how optimized a game is probably isn't the type with convictions to grind for any competitive WR. While keeping in mind that you are setting out for WR isn't necessarily a bad thing, you need to keep short term goals in order to keep yourself motivated, such as sub 10, sub 9:58, 3rd place etc.

  3. There is an inherent toxicity those who use leaderboards as a motivational tool are predisposed to fall into and you need to get out of this trap. People who chase records tend to think no other times below WR matter, but if you value 1st place so much, 2nd and 3rd should be at least somewhat meaningful to you. Don't become demotivated by not being in first, become motivated by being the x best player "in the world". More importantly, don't treat those on the leaderboards as your enemies, don't be upset at people surpassing you, and remember that only you have the power to improve yourself. I think this is where all the opposition to "WR culture" comes from, just because the most toxic people in Twitch chat always love to trash the non-WR holders.

  4. On the topic of others, don't be demotivated by other people's experiences or grind in the game. Everyone improves at different paces and people come and go. To use your SMB1 example, yes, the people at the top have spent thousands of hours, which may make you think you can't catch up, but most of the top runners have taken extended breaks at some point, and there have been many new challengers approaching these top times. Remember that there are strats now that didn't exist in the first thousand hours Darbian or AndrewG may have put into the grind. You have the tools to improve at a quicker rate than those in the past.

Basically all I'm trying to say is learn the game, hope for WR someday, but don't expect it to be easy by any means.

On the actual question of whether or not SMW 11-Exit is dead, no, it isn't and it never will be unless someone ties whatever the "human-theory" best possible time is. Even then, there will probably be new strats discovered at some point and the best possible time will go down. No game is dead as long as there is a means to improve. We've seen time and time again people declaring their speed game is "dead" after getting a WR, only to have their records beaten eventually. Some records are harder to get than others, sure, but if someone got a certain time, then a slight improvement on that time doesn't seem unrealistic to me. People will still grind when SMB1 sees a 4:55 and people will still grind when we see a 9:44.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
chunkySoup, Xander479, and xd_CAKE like this
North Carolina, USA

Hello Goose, a pleasure as always to have these discussions with you. Remind me to show you the reply button on Twitter sometime.

You and I actually agree on this, minus the condescending tone and need to be aggressive without knowing what you're talking about. The drive for WR and high level competition is almost always healthy and a positive motivator, but choosing a game for the sake of WR is limiting. I think you'd agree with this statement for fledgling members of the-elite.

WR Culture refers to the notion that the only person or contribution of note is the WR, and that all other runners, by extension, are losers. That puts a lot of pressure on PB-or-perish and turns away new runners who feel like they have no hope of getting WR, whether that it's true or not. It's a mentality that often doesn't come from runners themselves, but rather viewers' misunderstanding of the earnest passion that a runner driven for WR. That can sometimes demotivate new runners, thinking that it is an accepted belief that WR is all that matters, believing that they are unable to reach those goals, giving up before they start.

But hey, what do I know? I'm new here.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
limchi, Bloopiero and 6 others like this
Massachusetts, USA

Your final point was what I was about to say. As good as any run is, every run is improvable (with few exceptions). Even when 4:55 happens in SMB, there will always still be frames to save. No category can really ever be dead.

I also believe most can accomplish a wr with enough effort, but that might not be your goal. If it is, it can be a long journey, and is not always possible.

But... Practice makes perfect.

chunkySoup and Picante like this
Glamorganshire, Wales

I doubt anyone here knows about me and I definitely don't have as much experience with speedrunning as Goose and Authorblues so I just look like a misinformed idiot but I still want to give my opinion and I hope it's appreciated because I don't find myself agreeing with most people when it comes to this.

Firstly, I don't believe you should let an optimised WR stop you from running a game. Like I'm not a top contender in the game I run but I like seeing how much I can push myself a lot, and that's what I find appealing about speedrunning. However, I feel like some people don't realise that speedrunning IS a hobby, and you can get into a hobby for a variety of reasons. If you're competitive and care about "glory" or whatever then no shit you'll probably want to get a world record. If you just like seeing how far your skill can be taken in a game, then you'll probably just want to get your time down as far as you possibly can. I don't think either mentality is bad, and I'm sure there are other reasons to start doing runs of a game you're interested in.

Secondly, calling people out and saying they're hurting the growth of the speedrunning community is just kinda dumb and is sort of counter-intuitive. If you really want to help a community grow I think you should accept people of all mentalities, no matter how much you disagree with them. I'm sorta tired of someone posting something even a little controversial on twitter and having it start a ton of drama. Like there are a ton of speedrunners I don't agree with and refuse to watch their streams because of how I've been treated in them but outside of bringing it up a few times to make a point I really don't care. If I don't like someone I'll just ignore them, if you wanna harm the speedrunning community less stop with the twitter beef lmao

I kinda forgot the point I was trying to make and I'll probably regret making this post and will most likely get shit for it but I'm just kinda annoyed at self-righteous people who think their mentality is better than everyone else's and all who disagree are idiots. I guess this post could maybe be seen that way so I'll say that I don't agree with quicklyplease's post at all, however, if he wants to get into a game to get a WR then all the power to him. Everyone should have a motivator when it comes to speedrunning I think, and if getting a WR is that then cool

chunkySoup and Madtaz64 like this
Massachusetts, USA

I play games for world record most times because it is a fun challenge, but I don't expect WRs even on games I'm good at. It's always a pleasant surprise when it happens.

You need to believe you can get WR to do it and aim for that. However, you need to simultaneously realize that it takes a lot of effort and a ton of time, and that shouldn't be the sole reason for speedrunning a game. Being part of the community is much more fulfilling than getting world records.

chunkySoup, Xander479 and 2 others like this
Ireland

Interesting debate ? Quicklyplease, in terms of looking for a 2d Mario to speedrun I was in a similar position to you about 3 months ago, I’d loved them as a kid but my speedrunning had mainly been on Mortal Kombat games. Incidentally with it being a much smaller community getting WR’s and finding new strats was much more manageable. I’ll go back to those games in time but for now I’m absolutely loving speedrunning SMW and couldn’t recommend it more as something to try out.

The community is fantastic to be a part of and really that makes the journey to the and achievement of whatever pb you get much fuller. In terms of categories there’s a diverse range, in length, style etc, far more than in an average speedrun game. Due to it being actively speedrun for so long there are plenty of resources to help learning – shoutout to dotsarecool in particular!! – as well as support from other runners.

I’m totally happy for people to be determined to make WR, I would just advise to try to enjoy the getting there if you can ? , and also advise not to rule out potential speedruns purely on the basis that WR would be very difficult (I’m not saying you’re doing that, more general thoughts) Yeah most won’t get one of the big SMW WR’s (definitely not possible for me, I like the same categories as Calco!!) but the funs in the trying and improving – besides all the WR holders started from scratch at some point and if you’re determined to grind for it I wouldn’t rule out getting there, though I think you could have chosen a worthwhile hobby even if you don’t make it all the way! (And if you still want a WR check out the less optimised extra-categories to keep you going ? ) (EDIT formatting)

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Canada

"WR Culture refers to the notion that the only person or contribution of note is the WR, and that all other runners, by extension, are losers."

Imagine some young kid who wants to take up baseball, but "professional culture" tells the kid "you're only notable if you make the major leagues, maybe even the hall of fame; if not, you are a loser."

Imagine a high school student who wants to become a doctor, but "professional doctor culture" tells the student "you're only notable if you find a cure for cancer, or win a Nobel prize, otherwise you're a loser."

And for the people who are going to complain that the previous two examples are "not hobbies..." Imagine someone who takes up painting, but "high tier painting culture" tells him, "if you don't paint something as good as The Last Supper, you're a loser."

Imagine a dude who wants to pick up speedrunning, but "WR culture" tells the guy "if you don't get the WR, there's no point, and you're a loser."

In all these cases, the person is only a loser if they actually agree, and if them being told this from other people actually causes them to quit. And maybe if they were willing to quit so easily, they weren't meant to be participating in this act in the first place!

And not only that Blues, but who are you to tell the kid who does want to play pro ball, or cure cancer, or paint something as good as The Last Supper, or get a WR in a video game, that he shouldn't be able to do so "because it contributes to a very toxic and harmful culture which deters newcomers from participating." I mean really? You're going to stifle greatness in the name of inclusivity? People give me hell all the time for "trying to dictate how to participate in speedrunning." But you and likeminded individuals are literally doing the exact same thing, albeit on the opposing side of the spectrum. What gives you the right to put down those who do aspire for greatness?

Edited by the author 6 years ago
BorkHammer40k and xd_CAKE like this
Portugal

@authorblues I still don't quite get your point. WR Culture, according to you, comes mostly from viewers, who don't know anything about speedrunning.

Maybe it's just me, but once someone starts speedrunning they'll actually realize that there is value to runs that aren't as good as WR. That if a run is WR, then it's probably extremely good, and being merely "very good" or even just "good" is not demotivating - if anything, it's the opposite, since you're getting one step closer to the top.

Once you do start speedrunning, you realize how uninformed and wrong those people are, and you should pay no attention to them. Or, better yet, show them otherwise.

I agree that what you call WR Culture is a bad thing, but thinking it's a problem is an exaggeration. Are people that pathetic that they'll stop doing something they like because some irrelevant idiot on the internet said something stupid? Do people legitimately believe they have failed as a human being for not being the best at going fast in a videogame? And is that the kind of people you want in your community?

The viewers who propagate WR Culture - they don't know any better. The runners who fall for it - they're the true idiots.

North Carolina, USA

You assume that because I'm in favor of not putting undue weight on WR that I must also believe that going for WR is harmful. I've never said this, it seems to be an intentional misrepresentation of my point, and if I've said something that hints at this, I apologize for being inarticulate over text. I know you're looking to find a way to suggest that I'm trying to destabilize the competitive aspect of speedrunning, and this is so far from the truth that I hardly recognize your point.

I often go for WR and strive to produce the best quality speedruns I am capable of. I don't know why you keep quoting the "it's a hobby" line at me, because I'm perhaps one of the people who treat it least like "just a hobby". I only take issue with the idea that speedrunning is only about WR.

I agree with your point that some of those who are demotivated might be those who wouldn't have survived anyways, but I do strive to demystify speedrunning and increase accessibility. Perhaps I go about it wrong at times. I'm imperfect and I'm learning.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Bloopiero likes this
Canada

"As it stands it seems more like you're commiting the exact wrongdoing you highlight in your examples rather than discouraging it." @kevio

I literally spend more time, perhaps than anyone else in all of speedrunning, celebrating, showcasing, and giving exposure to speedrunners from the game I play; WR holders and lower ranked players alike. My signature Twitch & Youtube series, SpeedLore, celebrates all who left a mark on a stage in Goldeneye, whether they be a strategy finder, a TASer, a WR setter, someone with an unlikely PB, or just anyone with a cool story. My Year in Review videos showcase plenty of non-WRs and cool PRs from new players who are enjoying speedrunning. I'm single handedly responsible for inspiring several hundred people to pick up Goldeneye & speedrun it, the vast majority of whom will never get a WR (but still enjoy speedrunning!)

Unlike many in this thread, or ideological battle, I actually practice what I preach.

Slamphibian, xd_CAKE and 3 others like this
Canada

"You assume that because I'm in favor of not putting undue weight on WR that I must also believe that going for WR is harmful. I've never said this, it seems to be an intentional misrepresentation of my point, and if I've said something that hints at this, I apologize for being inarticulate over text." @authorblues

I am glad you have clarified your position, however the claim that I was intentionally misrepresenting it is misplaced. The very name you gave this "phenomenon" was being inarticulate of itself. You literally named your concept "WR culture." Do you not see how someone, who isn't a mind reader, would read that and think "wow, authorblues is talking about anyone who has or cares about WRs?" Honestly you need to choose a better name for "WR culture" because it genuinely implies any sort of excitement or interest in a WR. From what I'm gathering your stance is now, after you've clarified it, I think instead of saying "WR culture is harmful to speedrunning" you could say "the random irrelevant people on Twitch who are clueless about speedrunning and spew ignorant garbage; and the would-be-speedrunners who listen to them, are harmful to speedrunning."

"and if I've said something that hints at this, I apologize for being inarticulate over text." @authorblues

TBH this is exactly why I tend to stay out of long reply chains of Twitter (text) drama, (which you and likeminded individuals seem to live for), and instead prefer to elaborate on my viewpoints on stream or in videos, where it's much more clear. Even these forum posts are much more productive than a Twitter "reply fest" ever would have been. Twitter is literally the worst place to have coherent and constructive conversation, and just turns into a shitflinging fest of who can make the best jab or who gets the most likes. We see this every day with verified liberal journalists vs. Trump, which gets everyone nowhere. Reddit is also extremely bad too, because again it turns into a battle of "whoever has the most people agree with them at the current moment in time, gets the upvotes, and gets seen." Forums are actually pretty decent because everyone is on common footing, and everything gets seen equally, so posts are actually judged on their merit, rather than "whoever has the most friends around at the time." I understand that you guys just can't stay out of it, (like old ladies who can't help but gossip about every small thing in the neighborhood,) but SpeedTwitter and other inarticulate forms of text, are actually perhaps the most divisive thing in all of speedrunning right now. It's so easy to misconstrue or poorly articulate a point in 140 or 280 characters, and things get lost when you're restructuring paragraphs to fit in a chain of tweets.

Simply, if you don't want your text writings to be inarticulate, use another medium where you can better articulate. This goes not only to you, but to many, many of the SpeedTwitter contingent, who only serve to divide and throw shit at each other indefinitely, when in reality we'd all get along much better if we actually used a medium where we could better understand each other.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Chile

"It's a mentality that often doesn't come from runners themselves, but rather viewers' misunderstanding of the earnest passion that a runner driven for WR." @authorblues

One of the biggest problems I've seen within the Speedrunning community is a serious misunderstanding of the viewers intentions. It feels that many people around the community somehow feel a bit entitled to viewership. In this particular case you attribute the viewers' thirst for WRs as some sort of misunderstanding but that is not very likely to be true.

Why do more people watch the Super Bowl than any other Football game? Why does the Olympics garner such a big viewership? Humans are naturally attracted to greatness, There are a lot of people want to see the best of the best ducking it out. These people are not misguided, they just know what they want and their mistake might lie in watching a casual runner.

But why are these people watching casual runners and trying to push them into this WR Mindset instead of finding the runners who are here for the high level of competition? Simple observation will suggest that both the people who are playing for fun and those who are playing for records are sharing the same community, so the outside observer they are one and the same. If you say that there is a predominant "WR Culture" among viewers, that's only evidence that the competitive speedrunners are the ones that are bringing in most fans into the community itself, or at least the more engaged type of fans.

From a common sense standpoint it feels very logical, if someone is looking for the best competitors, they are likely to browse everyone in the community if they find someone with the potential to be better, they are likely to become "speedrunning fans". If you as a viewer are in for the personality and sheer fun aspect of it, you are more likely to stay with the runner you like and become a fan of him rather than follow the entire scene.

The onus is on every runner to define themselves, if don't want to have any sort of "WR Culture" pressure on you, simply to tell your viewers that you are not about that WR life, and that if they don't like that they can leave.

For many people WRs are in fact the end all of their speedrunning experience, the goal is what makes the speedrun worth watching and that's not something you should be expecting to change. That'd be like trying to convince someone who just attended a NBA game to watch your pickup game of basketball with your friends, you can certainly try, but there's no guarantees.

If people want to treat speedrunning as a hobby they'll just have to build their own audience for it, but if they have times in leaderboards, and constantly interact with the competitive-minded part of the communty, don't be surprised if random people discover you and expect more from you, nobody is forcing you to stream or to keep a public figure.

RWhiteGoose and CycloneFN like this