Since it's been brought up a few times, I just want to say that "Boring" is not an actual argument against leaderboards :) it's not up to you to decide what others enjoy running so if there's enough interest from other runners and it's completely thought through a leaderboard can exist. You can always choose to not run it yourself while letting others have their fun. It is however an explanation of why there hasn't been much interest up till now.

Similarly, terms like "Normal skips" aren't of any use to the discussion, because what's normal to you might be not normal to someone else, just like how what's boring to you might not be boring to someone else.

As for submitting it to Any%, yes it does make sense, Any% is merely beating the game from start to finish with whatever strats you choose to use and with any percentage of completion. Any run that beats the game can fall under it. That's why for any new leaderboards that impose certain limitations like "Glitchless" I want there to be a collection of videos to show to me that there is actually an interest in the category from enough people. If the interest isn't there, why split it from regular Any%.

The same would be required for the wisp-on categories Ryan brought up, but this thread is for Glitchless / Skipless so let's not derail the thread :)

As for rules. What I want to see is what Ryan brought up, what is allowed per stage and more importantly: why is or isn't it allowed. Consistent ruling is important.

Example below

Red Gate Bridge Banned: cutscene skip - Reason: requires Out of Bounds.

Mortar Canyon Banned: 2nd half skip - Reason: requires Out of Bounds. Allowed: 1st half skip - Reason: In-bounds, only requires jumping well

At this point you're not really describing a "glitchless" run, but a "no skips I don't like" run. If you want a glitchless category you're gonna have to think further than just "these skips I don't like" and be more detailed than "no skips".

Take Null Space for example, there are a lot of different routes through the stages and as a result there is no real "intended" route. Most of the skips just come down to, jumping to another platform or rail. Some of the routes skip sections using the drill, which you just described as a game mechanic that doesn't need to be limited by the rules, so are those skips allowed then?

Again it's fine if people want to run without skips, but in a game like this the ruleset for a "Glitchless" category needs to be extremely detailed.

That's why redirected you to the forums to start a more detailed discussion :) That said untill there's a widely agreed upon ruleset and some sample videos, you are free to run the game in whatever way you like and just submit them to the currently existing Any% boards! You are not forced to do skips you don't like in order to submit.

If it does get enough attention we'd be happy to add it later on of course. Feel free to use this thread to compile videos untill then.

Here's some stuff to think about though:

• How does the "No skips" rule apply to Avatar's Drill wisp? At what point is something considered a skip?
• Which Modern tricks are and are not allowed. There's jumps that don't require going out of bounds, but do skip small parts.

There isn't one atm, since existing runners haven't really shown interest in one. You're welcome to submit glitchless runs to the Any% boards of course.

A video of the full run is required to verify your gameplay

No, all of those fall under "Modifications" in the rule below

• Modifications, cheats, editing .ini files and emulator exclusive functions are not allowed.

Alright folks, Nuh_Ozkartal sent me his run of the Normal Sonic version of this category, so we have 2 for each. As such the leaderboards are now up in the misc section: https://www.speedrun.com/sonicforces/full_game#All_Modern_Stages

Regarding the topic of "All Avatar Stages", "All Classic Stages", etc. they'll be made under the same conditions as soon as at least 2 runs exist, so if there's interest in those in the future, feel free to make a thread.

Alright first off, thank you for actually posting videos of runs and suggested rules with your request, appreciate it!

I'm hesitating with the name a bit atm, since it isn't technically "All" Super Sonic stages, considering you can go Super on both classic and tag team stages as well. The most logical way to implement this version would be All Modern Stages with subcategories for Sonic & Super Sonic similar to IL's, which you already suggested. So I suggest naming it that way as well to avoid confusion. Other than that IGT sounds good and it'd start of in misc for sure.

I'll discuss it with Sayuri. Personally I'd still like to see a 2nd video of All Modern Stages - Sonic so that we have at least 2 for both.

Update on the "Speed up Disc Transfer Rate", it is apparently not a setting in the emulator itself, but in the properties of the iso file, that you can access through Dolphin. Right click on the iso file and select properties to see if it's turned on or not. Added back into the rules.

Ah sweet, thanks Mati!

Thanks to anyone who offered advice or help with navigating emulator stuff throughout all this btw. I'm not the most familiar with emulators, but learned a lot of important stuff to make this happen, while still making it as fair as possible.

While technically allowed as it's graphical, I heavily advice against it in order to not risk worse performance. If your pc struggles too much, it's a reject

Made some slight adjustments to the rules and updated the post above accordingly.

It seems Dolphin 5.0 automatically has "Speed Up Disc Transfer Rate" disabled and it's not even an option in the settings anymore like it was in 4.0. You could still adjust it by messing with .ini files, so instead I added to the rules that it's not allowed to mess with .ini files.

I also found some info from the Dolphin devs themselves about the "Skip EFB Access from CPU" options in the graphics settings. Having it checked on hurts emulation accuracy, so we should make sure that's turned off. All other defaults as pictured in this image are fine.

Also here's an image of the CPU Clock Override setting.

Made some slight adjustments to the rules and updated the post above accordingly.

It seems Dolphin 5.0 automatically has "Speed Up Disc Transfer Rate" disabled and it's not even an option in the settings anymore like it was in 4.0. You could still adjust it by messing with .ini files, so instead I added to the rules that it's not allowed to mess with .ini files.

I also found some info from the Dolphin devs themselves about the "Skip EFB Access from CPU" options in the graphics settings. Having it checked on hurts emulation accuracy, so we should make sure that's turned off. All other defaults as pictured in this image are fine.

Also here's an image of the CPU Clock Override setting.

Hello everyone! Recently, the discussion of emulators came up in another game I moderate, Sonic Heroes. We ended up allowing emulation there and since this game would be able to adhere to the exact same emulation rules, we decided to allow it here as well.

As such, emulation is now officially allowed for Egg Shuttle and Individual Levels with the ruleset below.

Emulator rules:

• Dolphin version 5.0 (or up) must be used.
• Please use a stable build of the emulator, no development or beta builds.
• "Speed up Disc Transfer Rate" must be disabled in the properties of the game iso.
• "CPU Clock Override" must be set to 100% or turned off completely.
• Under the graphics settings, in the hacks tab, please uncheck "Skip EFB Access from CPU". The rest of the defaults are fine.
• Emulator must run at full speed. An occasional lag spike is fine, but consistent slowdown is not.
• The window's title bar showing the emulator version, framerate, etc. must be visible in the video.
• Modifications, cheats, editing .ini files and emulator exclusive functions are not allowed.
• Emulator is only allowed for Egg Shuttle and Individual Levels.

Note: Any of the emulator rules shown above may be changed and retro-actively applied if new information about emulation is found that would require a rule change.

Why not Any% and All Chaos Emeralds?

• We've only confirmed Dolphin's accuracy in-game time wise thus far. For real time categories to be viable as well I would like a very detailed side-by-side showing that all aspects of the game are equal. This means load screens, lag (or lack thereof) and anything involving the overworld or cutscenes. The main point of emulation is accessibility, so having the game's main category and all of the IL's now open to you is a good first step.

What's the thought process behind some of these emulator restrictions?

• It's best to check out the thread in the Sonic Heroes for that. Any of the points involving emulator settings and functionality are explained more thoroughly there: https://www.speedrun.com/sonicheroes/thread/4m5el

Alrighty, looks like it's happening. We'll be allowing emulator for IGT categories and IL's with the restrictions below.

Emulator rules:

• Only NTSC versions are accepted.
• Dolphin version 5.0 (or up) must be used.
• Please use a stable build of the emulator, no development or beta builds.
• "Speed up Disc Transfer Rate" must be disabled in the properties of the game iso.
• "CPU Clock Override" must be set to 100% or turned off completely.
• Under the graphics settings, in the hacks tab, please uncheck "Skip EFB Access from CPU". The rest of the defaults are fine.
• Emulator must run at full speed. An occasional lag spike is fine, but consistent slowdown is not.
• The window's title bar showing the emulator version, framerate, etc. must be visible in the video.
• Modifications, cheats, editing .ini files and emulator exclusive functions are not allowed.
• Emulator is only allowed for Game Time categories and Individual Levels.

Note: Any of the emulator rules shown above may be changed and retro-actively applied if new information about emulation is found that would require a rule change.

Some explanations for the decisions:

Why only Gamecube / Dolphin?

• It is the easiest console to emulate and with the right settings, consistent enough that there aren't major differences. We want to strike the right balance of accessibility and accuracy. The research needed to allow PS2 or Xbox emulation doesn't really have any payoff as the accessibility of Dolphin more clearly aligns with the goals of allowing emulation to begin with.

Why only NTSC?

• With the existence of PAL60, a lot more timing and researching would have to be done to make sure they run equally. Not worth doing for this initial test run since there is no payoff. 60hz gets no benefit on IGT categories, as the file timer also gets the 20% speed increase. Allowing PAL at the regular 50hz doesn't have any added benefit either as it loses a small amount of time (10-ish seconds) to slower score screen loading anyway.

Why no RTA categories?

• For starters there is the abovementioned PAL60 testing that would have to be done. I'd also want a side-by-side of all non-gameplay aspects of the game to make 100% sure no RTA advantage is gotten by running on emulator. Considering this only applies to Super Hard Mode & All A Ranks, the least accessible categories, we decided to leave them out of this initial test run entirely.

What about the memory watcher issues Revo brought up?

• After discussing it with one of the game's TASers THC98, the likelihood of this giving any advantage during runs is very low, especially at the speed bop boosts happen. No clear advantage can really be gained from it that can't otherwise be gotten from visual cues. We're just gonna have some trust in y'all not to use it.

The reasoning for the rest of the rules are either found in this very thread, or should be obvious by itself.

Wouldn't call it a dead discussion. I feel like I was pretty clear from the start that I expect the people who want emulator to begin with to do the work. I've mostly been waiting to see if anyone had a solution to the issue Revo posted about as well as actual timing videos.

So on that topic, Avikaielef was kind enough to do some minor timing tests, but I guess he didn't actually post them here so I'll post them in his stead.

Score screen loading seems equal. Don't mind the fact that he didn't hit A to progress the score screen itself, he doesn't actually play this game :P what's important here is the inital time it takes for the score screen to pop up https://streamable.com/ca9k83

Unskippable cutscenes seem equal in length too. https://streamable.com/we14u5

Personally that's my worries about IGT being equal gone. If it turns out to not be the case we can always reverse decisions. As for the thing Revo posted, I'd love to have a good way to spot if that's being used, but since we lack that it'd have to just be on trust basis. I'll ask the other mods for their take.

I know what you mean, every boss has this problem where it adds some extra seconds when you first select it in the challenge menu. You are definitely allowed to do it from a restart (doing the stage in story mode also doesn't add the extra seconds) and no it's not checkpoint segmenting.

So something I'd personally still like to see for this is a confirmation that all loads are equal to (or slower than) console. A side by side video taking all the parts that don't have a stage timer. For me personally that's the only part I'm still unsure of atm.

(If anyone does do that, don't use Deku's runs as the console example, his stage loads are slower than most Wii's for some reason. Only top runner with that problem afaik).

Someone named Hydrus from multiple communities that allow Dolphin actually gave some pretty good insight in regards to point 3, the builds (and something I didn't think of, settings). What they generally follow for ruling is:

Runs on Dolphin emulator must use version 5.0 or later. -> most consistent build thus far "Speed Up Disc Transfer Rate" must be turned off. -> makes loads faster "CPU Clock Override" must be set to 100%. -> makes the game itself run faster or slower

So any further testing and comparisons should be done with those settings in mind imo.

Hey folks! I know there are a bunch of you that'd like emulator to be allowed for this game. The other mods and I are not not promising anything as of yet (I'll start the discussion with the other mods based on the results of this thread), but let's at least open up the discussion.

There are a few points that I think are important to consider before allowing emulation. Some of these require thorough testing and I'd like this thread to be the hub for posting said tests.

This will mostly be focussed on the Dolphin emulator, but if there are any other options that I'm unaware of, do bring them up if you think they're viable.

1. Does emulator load faster? And if yes, does this loading effect the loading speed of the score screens as well, which would effect IGT? The results of this test would show which timing methods emulator would be on equal footing for, if any at all.

2. To more easily detect pre-recording with save states or submitting TASes, I personally think it'd be wise to include the window bar of Dolphin in the game capture. The "Input frame/total" counter shows whether a recording is playing or not. Also makes it even easier to spot performance issues. Thoughts on this?

3. Are there performance differences between different builds of Dolphin? This is important to know in case we'd need to regulate specific builds that we know work well.

4. Any known differences in physics and if there are any, whether they impact the run at all. Obviously all mods/cheat codes will not be allowed, but it's important for the main game to run as correctly as possible.

I do not have the spare time (or tbh, motivation as I'd still like most people to run on actual hardware) to look into stuff like this, so I'd appreciate your help in this. If anyone else has any other points of discussion, please do post them.