Hello Liv. I'll try and say everything in one post and may go off from your post but it's relevant so sorry in advance I'll try to keep it short.

Your points;

1. Fair point, however, since I didn't personally add this rule, I'm not sure what the person behind the idea had in mind.

2. I'm not sure I fully understand where the problem with livesplits is. If you're suggesting the mods need to time the runs by watching the video then I can see there being a difference of opinion on the time. In REOB (sorry if you know this I'm just making it clear as I understand it) that times can be in seconds and when the run starts vs finishes means it could be 0.25s off a full second but gets rounds done. Putting the mods in a position where they have to set a time themselves which could vary by 1-2s that could decide whether a new record is set or not will be controversial given some mods are competitors to and as you may have seen there has been drama already. I myself stated a fact not directed at anyone and @unicoy called me out for accusing him and his team of cheating when I don't even know who is on his team (citation at https://www.speedrun.com/reobf1/thread/lhc87).

3. Rule changes have been discuss at length (see https://www.speedrun.com/reobf1/thread/aavnh). We've not discussed much behind closed doors only in the sense that we put together what we proposed and listened to the community. Where we felt the rules could be changed (like stick figures) we amended it and to minimise/avoid problems in the future we really felt the new rules were necessary. Not everyone is going to be happy with the rules, we get that, however, some members here have been more than just critical of changes (see 2. where we were discussing the rules some of the backlash we got over rules members didn't like but also backlash for rules we didn't implement).

4. I read @unicoys response and I don't think he gave you the full picture. The first run submitted was on 5th Oct 2018, date submitted 1st March this year, 6 months (though I'll readily accept that this drama started a month ago (based on hurriboys post though don't know the exact date. That's 5 months which some of us were quietly critical of. Unicoy has given his reasons which I personally take issue with which I feel should be said I can go in to if you request it but now isn't the time. The fact is these 15 runs were dumped on mass and another 29 the next day AFTER Hurriboy posted no more submissions which caused the drama we're still in it seems. Why the delay then? Because there has been discussions privately by the mods (this was after it was discussed publicly on the forums about runs submitted at Hurrboy's post). At the time, Hurriboy was on his own, then it took time to get the community in order, then mods were chosen including myself and finally we were ready to tackle the issue of the runs submitted after Hurriboy's post. He complains about 1 month wait but he can sit on runs for 5 months and expect them done....he didn't mention this it seems.

5. I feel we have been transparent and that's why there's been a backlash over the rules. The threads are there for all to read so I'll let you decide how people reacted, I'm not going to point fingers but I think it's fairly clear to anyone reading and that's just this forum. I'm not 100% sure if Hurriboy announced (pretty sure he did) that runs made after the post (apparently all 29 File 2 runs were pending until it was decided what to do). I feel as mods we need to lead and put things like this to the community and listen, not just let the community do it on their own and that's what we've done.

As for Unicoy's post you linked;

I am no personal friend of Hurriboy, or the other members in my team, we get on online and run together and that's it and as moderator I'm here because I felt Hurriboy could trust me to do the job well and I don't take bias. I've addressed the runs pending for so long. I honestly feel reading this (and I expect Unicoy will prosecute me for this) that he only see's things from his point of view and if he perceives an attack (like accusing him of cheating) he'll lash out before maybe coming back and toning down his response and maybe an apology. To be more specific to earlier, his responses are largely very aggressive/defensive or "I don't like it and you're not listening/you're dictating".

Due to the perceived nature of Unicoy I've advised diplomacy and any attempt to aggravate the situation but the accusation of cheating (before I became a mod) shows that merely being associated with Hurriboy and being a competitive runner to Unicoy and his team instantly makes me guilty by association which is why my first post as moderator implied I'll be one unless people take issue with it because without the community's trust I won't be good at my role (that's me putting the community first and Ill step down with immediate effect if enough people wish it).

The stick rule HAS been removed and was in the updated rules (though got rolled back due to an issue with the website. There is no rule regarding 480p that I can see having checked a few so unless someone can tell me where this is, I can't fix it or explain it. If I were in Unicoy's position I'd have posted here and said "Hello, for the rules of xxxx, it says xxxx is this correct and here is why I think it's wrong". Instead he gives effectively a rant from his own point of view with how he see's things saying I accused him of cheating and how I'm friends with Hurriboy like that's reason enough. He asks why he wsasn't chosen to be a mod. I'd say his behaviour is proof enough.

I left Unicoy's runs deliberately because there was a massive backlog (15+29 backed up runs makes a big backlog and 29 were pending because Hurriboy wanted mods so that a consensus could be made and not him just making decisions on his own. Yes he can admit he took too long but he'd be damned if he does it on his own, damned for his mod choice, damned for discussing with mods in private, it seems like the only thing that would make Unicoy happy is make him mod and I doubt him and Hurriboy would get on well enough and probably me. I've not made an enemy of Unicoy but his attitude on this forum especially makes me feel we'd not get on as mods.

...I'm sorry but it's late and a lot has been said so I'll say I've not covered everything I wanted to say and if I can try and reply asap. All I can end with is Liv is do your job as I believe you can and have done. I've done my best to keep this post factual but to the point. Unicoy has had his chance to give his side of the story without us interjecting so if you want to speak to us Liv you are more than welcome to here if you wish or privately.

Quick P.S.

Note that unicoy hasn't once mentioned me by name since being made a mod, only Hurriboy's friend. He has either inferred or outright stated as fact that this means I'll back Hurriboy and whatever he says goes but this couldn't be further from the truth. The mods have spoken privately about the pending runs after it was announced publicly they were and we were hoping to make a public response by a mod that's not me or Hurriboy because I felt it would not be appropriate given this bad blood but the mod in charge of it who didn't know the depth of the problem is understandably uncomfortable and if need be I'll post but sufficed to say I made sure reasons for not rejecting runs were brought up and made sure everyone was able to make a decision without both sides of the story and that any decision was come to fairly.

Watch the runs bro, if ur not convinced just name the run which u think needs more prove we redo them and with the new rules applied (4 people view) but if u really good at this game u know these runs are legit How i can see it u just saving ur runs its funny u submit and verfiy ur own runs.

Okay unicoy just glancing at your post and getting the gist of it tells me one thing that i can never be respected by you as a mod and will always be a Hurriboy yes man. Being an active runner that is always acts as you do and who can't be reasoned with despite trying my best I don't really see any reason I can be a mod if this is how it's going to be. You only see what you see and state it as fact, complaining and portraying your side of events not even bothering to try and see differing points of view and accept that you don't always get to have your way. In case you were wondering, it was me fighting your corner for why your runs perhaps shouldn't be rejected but I don't know why I bothered. You seem to have considered me an enemy before you met me all because I knew hurriboy. I don't see how talking with you is going to help it would just prolong the drama I didn't sign up for. I had my doubts it was right to mod but I tried and already I feel like it's not worth it and would be surprised if anyone would.

Liv, I'm willing to discuss this with you privately but not here and it should be clear why. This behaviour is the reason partly why things are the way they, it should not be allowed and I am not willing to stay a mod if this is how it's going to be indefinitely. This has gone on for a month at least and I've not even been a mod that long. I'm going to try and resolve this but I'm not going to let this start affecting my health.

Greeting, everyone.

I have experience as a moderator in some leaderboards and most of the time I try to talk to other runners to change the rules (I say mostly because I mod some "dead" leaderboards). Last time I reply this forum, I remember you guys said that 1, 2 or 3 runners is not enough to change the rules, so, I demand to have all runners (I mean RUNNERS, not random people that like the game) to be shown their statements about this rule change; anyways, this was needed so badly that it was suddendly posted in the forum, imposing the changes without the possibility to make a conversation with the active runners? (For example, I had to change the rules at Postal Redux because the runs were badly timed and we could have a more precise way to time the runs; and of course I contacted the active full mods to make their opinions, and the runner who made a thread at the forum asking for this actually took my wr from me, but he didn't know because by the rules I was still first).

I have already dealt with stubborn mods and runners, try to be more polite and make your points without being a bit "salty", and I mean like act like a victim on prupose, attack personally, use sarcasm, etc. We are different teams, I don't see other runners as rivals or enemies, it looks like you see us like that. The problem here is that a team is modding this leaderboard, and add people who never made a run before, because I suppose, they are friends. Plus they don't know anything about the game.

I will make the points you already did, so you can have my opinon.

1. I don't see the point in on swapping the music files inside the game, you don't know what that could do, maybe help you, maybe not, maybe making the verifying harder, mayne not. The point is, why are you allowing add music mods but at the same time forbidding them. Liv said like the rule should say having background music is allowed, if the music is really low, then I agree, but if not, well you already know the answer to that.

2. Being a mod it's a difficult task, and it's tiring, you don't get anything in return, but getting hate is not a good start. If you think it's "funny" or "easier" to have the RTA compulsory so you don't have to retime the runs, you shouldn't even be a Verifier. RTA is just for helping the runner, nothing more, don't expect to have a easier job by doing that. I had to retime whole Postal Redux 2 times because the server rolled back a few days ago, but I still did it. I retimed Mortal Kombat Armageddon because I offered myself, and I didn't get anything in return, but I'm still here because it what I am meant to do, and because I like it, if I didn't, I had to abandon the site and left my "charges".

I mostly answered the point 3 at the start. If you want to make a new discord so active runners join, just do it, it will be easier to you to communicate changes.

4. Just verify the runs, you told us you will do it, what are you waiting for? You are verifying your own runs and newer runs, but you still have much to verify before that, I can't express what I feel knowing you are moderating a leaderboard without the intend to moderate the leaderboard properly.

5. I'm glad the other moderator left or were kicked, because they didn't do anything, but it seems like you are actually the same as them, and I don't like that at all, -pointing someone for something and doing the same as that person-.

I spent days, weeks doing this runs with our friends, failure after failure, having all runs finished and submited was a good feeling, then you made that suddenly thread saying the rule changes, but we ask you if you were going to verify our runs, and you said yes, knowing you guys said that you were going to verify them was a huge feeling of happiness, but now you don't want to verify them? What reason you have for that?

I will be waiting a prompt response.

Best wishes. Epica

I like both of these drafts for the rules. If others agree I can paste them in. Sticking with RTA for online runs is better than IGT because changing the timing method into a speedgame that has been ran for years is a very drastic change. And if there's no way to verify past runs under this new timing method, it makes no sense to do so.

All points of view do make a lot of sense and should have been a rule originally. if agreed by the main runners of online runs, this rule can be put in place.

I will state though, any run that has been submitted and is pending verification, will not be affected by any new rules that are put in place. The date of some of those runs were completed nearly 8 months ago, so as long as they meet the requirements of the current rules.

Regarding my position as moderator, I have always paid attention to offline runs. Online runs were always dealt with by the other mods, but they don't mod anymore. Hence when i was asked by a friend to make Hurriboy a moderator, i was pleased that I would get some help with the verification of online runs, but instead i was just told to demod myself. That will not be happening.

However, we do need some more people to verify some runs since there is such a huge backlog of runs that need to be verified. If you would like to be a verifier, feel free to reach out to me on this thread and we can discuss further

feel free to add me on discord again and we can discuss it. I do get a lot of comments on youtube so i probably did miss it. My apologies-

Unless I missed a meeting this has been done without any of the active mod's approval so someone has decided to go over everyone else's heads and appoint someone who has shown complete disregard for the drama that is going on. Already have 3 mods against it and we're being told to be transparent and communicate.

This needs resolving immediately one way or another.

holy shit LUL after all this drama trance mod him without even being active here PogChamp

Not to add fuel to an unnecessary fire here, but I will step in on some people's behalf. Hurri cannot respond now because the man is asleep and should be allowed to rest from time to time. For Silver, they were asking a simple question because this came out of nowhere yet the response was one of disdain saying that people are ignoring others and no one is helping to resolve the issues. This is not a school playground and such claims should not be thrown around lightly is all I would say. The people that were made mod were done so because we have been running the game at length (for several years now) and knew a lot of the ins and outs of the game. The reason why trance wasn't asked at the time, and there is no definitive proof he wasn't asked without him saying it himself, of course was again the man was probably busy with other life situations. In this situation it is a little different though as all of the current mods are active and trying to have conversations with Site Mods (You can ask Liv yourself on that one if you don't believe me) to get things settled. In addition we literally just had a conversation about transparency and then something shady like this happens is bound to bring up more discussion.

I will say this once and only once because I refuse to get into an argument with anyone on this forum, if you want to have a discussion like adults about something I am always down to talk. We are taking our time verifying runs in order to make sure that it is done the correct way and that runs do not get verified that shouldn't and vice verse. If you can't handle that then you need to return to a time when we all learned that patience is a virtue. In addition, I think Unicoy has raised a lot of good points, but the way it has been done leaves a lot to be desired. There is no tact in your statements and you come across as an entitled immature child unfortunately. I deal with people like that everyday as a professor in Uni and unfortunately one has to realize at some point in their life that not everything goes their way. I have defended you in the past but I think you really need to think before you type a response in this forum because otherwise it will be increasingly difficult to work with you. If you would like to have a discussion with me as an adult you can find me in discord as I am part of the RE server.

I modded UNICOY simply because they wanted to help. Having the runs put on hold because they were "Cheating" is just a lame excuse for wanting to change the rules and it is more of a personal attack against him and his runs. He also came up with some really cool suggestions to make mods lives easier and keeps the boards consistent and not having any mistakes in timing.

We do have an Outbreak Discord now. Feel free to join this - https://discord.gg/fMEaJdJ

I think this was not a very good end. There is a huge lack of impartiality here, I expected exchange of opinions and arguments, but sadly there only was people defending ideas, because are their friends, or simply benefit one side. I don't see the point in Hurriboy and the other guys I don't remeber, to leave the leaderboard; this make me believe some people was "moderating" to only have the """power""" to do whatever they wanted. Anyways, It is good to see 3 different points of view now in the moderation team. Also I want to add that "discus with the other mods if unicoy will be added to the mod team" was a obvious dirty move, a team of friends and runners voting, which of course they have the same opinions because you can see that in the likes on each post in this thread, amd it was a obvious no, against 1 vote.

Hope now this leaderboard follows a good path now.

ofc it will follow a good path PogChamp all runners are out

most of the previous mods all left without any message and seems to have vanished. even their accounts looks like have been gone. they missed a chance to have a talk on the new discord server.

I was asked by various people to handle this, and I discussed the situation and outcome with the other site staff full mods involved.

The state of the moderators on the board has to represent a general community consensus. There are numerous players of this game and additional feedback from players of other games in the series who have expressed strong dissatisfaction with the current state of moderation.

It looks like the addition of the recent moderator was done unilaterally without regard for the opinion of the other moderators. The current situation does not appear stable at all. The moderator taking the action to add the additional moderator hasn't been active with handling issues with the board until just recently deciding to take this action, which adds to the dissent. The way this happened suggests there was little to no effort to discuss or reach some consensus on who should be moderating. There is not strong support even in these forum discussions for that outcome aside from people who do co-op runs together with the user. It was mentioned explicitly in this thread a few times that the other people moderating did not want the user added. There are almost certainly people available who can moderate the game without creating such a divide between the community.

I do agree the rules were lacking in detail. I also agree that the verification and handling of runs was lacking. Regardless of those two points, the moderation still has to represent community consensus.

We're going to let the last remaining moderator, who has high community involvement, choose a moderation team to hopefully remedy the situation.