Stair Skating using the Analogue Stick
8 years ago
Florida, USA

First off, I respect everyone's opinions in this thread equally.

So here's what I'm thinking. Several community members that are good at stair skating have flat out said they don't give a damn about this method. While my skating isn't Derps tier, I feel like it's gotten good enough to not be a hindrance. As I've said before, I don't care if people use the analog either but would never use it as it's a personal discomfort.

We've had several members of the community publicly voice that they're okay with this. Pessimism himself has told me he's okay with this (I'll ask him to post here to verify it if need be).

I've not run into anybody that's been against it that's not Lileya or Comic. So I'm feeling a little like it's "community vs two mods".

When the majority is for it, I don't personally think this should be a choice by the couple of people that are against it.

The argument about third party software is weak at best, as people use the same third party software to run other games in this series. It's also by definition NOT a macro.

Never mind any personal opinions of definitions, it simply isn't a macro.

A flick of the analog up and letting go is the same as pressing and depressing a button. It's not like you're flicking the analog to emulate pressing the X button 50 times a second. Even when you frantically flick the stick up an down you're still physically causing the same amount of inputs/releases, it's just physically easier for some people to rapidly flick a stick up and down than to rapidly press and release a button.

The second biggest counter argument boils down to milliseconds as Lileya pointed out. Milliseconds. If the game presented players with milliseconds, and the game was so optimized that Pessimism and Lileya were separated by 3 milliseconds, then I could understand this argument. That's not the case, and there's plenty of places to gain/shave time so there's not much more to say about that.

Lastly, both mods that have chipped in have not offered any solutions to make sure it's prevented in the event it were banned (though I did ask Comica to just quickly post their thoughts so no big deal on that). If it were banned, I don't exactly feel confidence that the mods will be able to prevent cheating if someone new strolls around and decides to secretly use this technique. The honor system is great, and I think everyone has obeyed it so far... but now that this is out in the open what would you do to make sure this isn't happening?

There isn't much you CAN do to prevent it, so go with it and allow it but set some guidelines (which seriously need to be revisited in general anyway. No difference between 30 and 60 FPS? Yeah... uh... not true.)

I'm not trying to be argumentative/difficult. It doesn't affect me either way. But I see this as being a potential barrier remover and a good thing for everyone else.

I think that we as a community can come up with some guidelines when it comes to remapping and other things (like character skin mods... really?! I can't take any run seriously that uses them, and I know many others feel the same). Do's and Don't's. If anything isn't specified, simply ask in the forums before doing it.

¤¤¤Should we maybe do a Strawpoll or something so this can be put to rest?¤¤¤

.

California, USA

just to add, do speed runners actually enjoy stair skating? I think the majority will say no. the repeated abuse of my fingers feels like it's giving me arthritis. haha. but seriously, I have to keep skating this shit all day trying to come close to pessimism's real survival time, and if the slightest thing goes south, I find myself restarting and skating again. I hate it personally. I wish we could just ban it but I know i'm in the minority on this one. if I owned this site and/or was a verifier, I would ban it (it seems like common sense to me).

United Kingdom

It would be good to know whether or not some sort of decision-making is going on behind the scenes between the moderators, or whether I'm waiting for a verdict that isn't coming.

California, USA

for casual speed runners it's not a big deal, but when you're gunning for first place stair skating becomes a bigger problem due to the extremely high reset count.

Florida, USA

I guess I haven't seen very many WR runners reset due to stair skating, but I will say I'm completely against banning it all together.

California, USA

resets are not from stair skating, they are from dogs, snake, spider, random occurrences, etc., you name it.

remember, stair skating saves minutes, not milliseconds.

pretty much, the super moderator, carcinogen or whoever, should finalize this. whatever they say goes.

Florida, USA

Saves minutes overall, but the argument about the difference between the technique and regular mashing is milliseconds. I still think it should be a community decided thing, but I'll respect whatever decision is made... I just don't think banning skating is it (not sure you'll find any support for that here, tbh).

I do not have a problem with this personally. In fact, I'm interested in trying out Zeroth's tactic to see if I can skate faster, thus dropping my times even further.

CursedToast likes this
Québec

Sorry guys, no decision will be taken until we get everybody's opinion, including at least a couple more mods.

I actually talked about this with Sshplur, and he seemed to agree with this being a macro (or something close to a macro). He wasn't thinking it should be allowed. (I wish he came himself to say this but he said he lost his password. If I'm misreporting your words, Sshplur, remember your password already and post your opinion yourself :P)

As FurryWulfz said, I'm just a verifier, I don't think I hold the "truth" or something. I stated my opinion, I think it was pretty clear what my view on the matter is. I definitely would absolutely not feel comfortable taking the decision all on my own...

At the end of the day though, if this is allowed, all serious speedrunners on PC won't have choice to learn this technique if they wanna compete. We're not talking about saving like 2 minutes per run, but 15-20 seconds on an entire run can make a real difference.

Hopefully the remaining mods will take the time to come and state their opinion on the matter.

xxshadowxbossxx likes this
Québec

Just like they would still be people using turbo or macros to quick-shoot and there's no way to explicitly verify it. Same dilemma. Yet, I'm sure you'll agree it's an "unwritten law" that turbo allowed.

So I guess if I follow your reasoning, we should just let people do whatever they want because there will always be cheating and no real way of verifying it?

I'm not trying to be a bitch, I'm genuinely trying to understand your point.

Florida, USA

I would imagine turbo would be a hell of a lot easier to detect vs a user wiggling the analog stick. Because again, a user is still pressing and depressing the run button, just in a more physically efficient way. With turbo a user could cheat something crazy like 60 inputs a second, right? Derps can do like 14... and the analog stick is probably 15-16 a second at best.

Where as, with the analog stick method (if it were banned) would be much harder to tell between good stair skating and "cheating".

The argument could be made that a turbo user would just cap off their inputs to 15/16 a second to hide their cheating though, I suppose. But I feel more users would play legit if there's an easier way to skate efficiently.

Words from a friend that doesn't speedrun: "Still, you're about playing this game as fast as possible. And as long as it's full user input for every step of the way (no turbo) this should be seen as an optimization, no?"

Also, not trying to be a dick, but just genuinely trying to understand more of your point (sorry if I've seemed like I have been, that's not intentional and I do respect you a ton, Lileya).

I still think the "third party software" argument is ridiculous when people in the same series use the same software without issue. It's just remapping. I feel like this whole thing is blown out of proportion and is maybe pissing off some people that have mastered skating, perhaps? If I'm wrong, no offense, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

What exactly is the problem with this if it's not a macro and is still requiring the same amount of rapid movements (just via an analog stick which is easier to rapidly "press/release" than a button) other than just "in my opinion it's cheating"? That's all many of us are feeling is the argument against it at this point (that and improperly using the word "macro") while we've provided what feels like a lot to allow it.

Québec

Clearly, I don't understand what's speedrunning because, to me, it was obvious this shouldn't be allowed. But everybody, except a handful, is arguing that this technique is totally legitimate.

So, my bad and apologies for even criticizing it and starting this "blown out of proportion" polemic.

United Kingdom

There aren't any hurt feelings on either side, so again there is no need to apologize.

We just seem to have arrived at a situation where the moderators are categorizing the technique as cheating, and have stated their arguments for doing so. The opposition have, I think, comprehensively rebutted these arguments, in particular by highlighting the inconsistency of allowing remapping using the same piece of software for other games in the series and by pointing out that the technique cannot be classed as a macro by definition. Are these counter-arguments not sufficiently persuasive to warrant reconsideration of your position, Lileya?

"My problem with "your" remapping isn't that it's remapping per se, but rather that (if I understand your post and CursedToast's properly) in one single motion of your stick from top to bottom, the game registers 3 inputs : press X, unpress X then press X. I guess if you do it continuously, it's more 2 inputs rather than 3. So you're actually doing 2 inputs for the price of one!

So it's not just your "usual" remapping. You didn't simply remapped X to Y, or B to A, which I personally wouldn't give a crap if you did. It's the fact this specific remapping allow you to input things quicker."

What you seem to be suggesting here is that remapping is legitimate in your view, so long as it isn't being used to achieve greater efficiency. If this is an accurate representation of your position, then my question to you would be: Why else, other than to achieve greater efficiency, would anyone take advantage of remapping?

England

Might as well throw my opinion into the mix.

The reason 3rd party software isn't frowned upon for mapping a controller in RE2 & RE3 is because controllers aren't plug and play, REmaster is. There is literately no need for controller mapping on REmaster. In fairness, unless you're totally garbage at stair skating, the time save is minimal. This doesn't exactly suggest it should be allowed, because you then have to ask yourself, where does the 'mods' stop?

Whats stopping anyone from doing something even more ridiculous? "I'm on PC, we should optimise it more . . . . fuck it, lets remove enemies". Obviously it's a bit extreme.

To shut everyone up, open a category that allows door skip and controller mapping. People can view that category how they wish, It's subjective if it's seen as a joke or not then. I think for people that run this game with no 'additional advantages' it's disrespectful to intrude on their times. It seems that the goal posts shift months down the line, rather than making it clear from the outset and that's why Lileya is pissed.

Done, sorted. . . . Everyone is please.

Pessimism likes this
United Kingdom

"The reason 3rd party software isn't frowned upon for mapping a controller in RE2 & RE3 is because controllers aren't plug and play, REmaster is. There is literately no need for controller mapping on REmaster."

Are you certain of that, JayBoneElite?

Ask for a couple of other mods opinions? You mean the ones that don't verify runs? Do they even run this game anymore? Lileya is the only one that consistently verifies runs. Zenix has verified a couple of them over the passed couple of months. Carci has verified one in the same time span. I speak for me personally of course. Why are the other people mods? This isn't an insult or attack on any of them obviously. Please don't use "people have lives. Blah. blah blah." It doesn't make sense to have someone as a mod if they don't verify runs. If they aren't going to be removed, please add someone who is active on this site for this game, so Lileya can have a break.

Liv likes this
England

Seems i was misinformed about not being able to plug and play for RE2 and RE3. The same should apply to that. No need for third party software.

I won't lie, i use third party software to map the controller, i just don't submit times. I personally don't agree with 'extras' on legitimate platforms. The game should be run on how it was designed, emulators exist for mapping and accessibility.

In REmaster's case, just make a door skip category that also allows 3rd party software controller mapping. If that category is considered, I would suggest which mod was used and which mapping tool was allowed, this would eliminate inconstancy and further moaning. Basic rules.

Pessimism likes this
United Kingdom

"Seems i was misinformed about not being able to plug and play for RE2 and RE3. The same should apply to that. No need for third party software."

I was more referring to controllers that are not plug and play for HD Remaster. : p

England

I just downloaded the official drives from Microsoft (which was done automatically when i plugged in the controller), and it works absolutely fine. :)

@Furry I personally don't agree with extras, I believe the game should be run how it was intended. in this case, with a keyboard for RE 2 and RE 3. If you can map a controller in game, that's different.

England

We're now talking about RE2 and RE3, I don't want to continue this conversation in a REmaster thread.

Xbox 360 and Xbox One controllers are plug and play for REmaster, and if people aren't satisfied with that, they have a keyboard. In my opinion, If they want mapping tools, add another category that also includes door mod. Everyone wins.

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