In regards the RTA for consoles, what is the starting point and end point for the timing? Has this been decided at all? I presume the start will be as soon as you select the difficulty, but not sure for the end?

So, despite my having weighed in about a weekish ago and stating that I support using IGT over RTA, I think I am switching my stance on this, for what its worth.

While I still think that using RTA over IGT has its fair share of issues and problems, using IGT has just as many it seems. So regardless, we are gonna have some issues to sort out and learn to deal with, which, in my opinion, means the main thing to focus on should be what is going to present the least barrier of entry for people who want to pick up the run later down the line.

With IGT, the runs have to be deathless and without restarts/retries. This coupled with the rule we would likely have to have about being as quick as possible in menus are such or risk disqualification seems like it would seem like a much bigger barrier of entry. True, you can run categories that dont actually exist on the leaderboards, but if the base, main category has a high enough barrier to entry, people wont bother getting involved with the community or even attempt to submit runs. So people would likely still run the game, but they would probably be significantly less likely to actually join the community and then we risk the boards eventually becoming a sort of waste land (bit hyperbolic I'll admit, but I think it establishes my point here).

After spending a lot more time with the game and speaking with a few people I know... I think RTA might actually be the better route to go. If this causes the boards to be split further than by console generation, obviously that sucks, but I think it might be the better option. Having the video start early enough to show the difficulty selection screen and the end results screen while having the RTA start when we gain control of Ethan at the very start of the game and ending when Miranda enters her death animation, imo, might be the better way to go.

I just wanted to post this here, it’s a copy/paste of the recent announcement about console time that was made in the Discord:

[quote=TheDementedSalad] Hello runners! Quick update from us regarding console's timing method (These are simply basic rules and will be fully expanded on before the board release)

• Console runs of this game use In Game Time (IGT)
• Tactical resets and pauses may be used to teleport Ethan, despawn/move enemies or load things quicker
  • Tactical resets must be done within a couple seconds of hitting the checkpoint
  • Any non tactical resets will result in a rejection - non tactical resets being deaths or messing up
• Dying during a run will invalidate it

After much consideration, we decided IGT would be the lesser of two evils. This game was fucked either way between IGT and RTA, and RTA for this game is very P2W even with consoles of the same gen. [/quote]

Not trying to nitpick your last statement there... But both the Xbone and X1X launched at a higher price than the PS4 and PS4 Pro. And the XSX and PS5 are the same price. So its more P2L than P2W.

@GenoaLow Weird post. This game came out this month not at launch of the last generation of consoles. A PS4 or Xbox One costs less right now than a Series X or PS5, and most cost less than the Series S as well. Additionally, if you pay extra for better storage on those old consoles, you get better load times, which equals better RTA times, hence the mod that posted that’s comments about it being pay to win.

So IGT is being used. Ok. In regards to tactical resets, what if you dont use any in your run? (I have no idea where they are to make use of haha. Only just started running) If not using them will it invalidate? Or is it just taking time/dying that invalidates it?

@RejectedGamerSam An example of resetting checkpoints in a "tactical" manner, is when certain checkpoints are hit, you can pause the moment you see the checkpoint symbol, and restart checkpoint. Sometimes, this will push Ethan further down a path, or make a gate/door open faster. Thus, saving time. Not doing these will not invalidate a run. Only dilly daddling too long, or dying.

Awesome thanks. Its all new to me and things so just wanna make sure and all. Thanks!

Are runners going to be in any way penalized for rearranging items thoroughly and mulling stuff over in Duke's shop?

I think thats the biggest issue with IGT, in that all menu heavy sections aren't timed at all. So rearranging items optimally quickly and scanning Duke's shop quickly are going to be two components essentially removed entirely from console.

@Liv We expect people to do their inventory fast and not chilling in the duke shop either, we will on a case to case basis decide if someone was intentionally trying to manipulate IGT or if they are just maybe a bit slower on the menus. Unfortunately this is the hand we've been dealt from capcom and there's not much we can do besides this.

I think I already showed an external ssd will make up most of the difference in the elevators and loading screens for older gen consoles

So, came here to read through this after asking some questions about dying in a previous post, but... I guess I just can't really wrap my mind around how IGT is better than RTA, especially for console?

Just to get this straight: PC Players spend time constantly pausing to change the framerate then pausing to change it back, or even worse, sitting on an elevator and pausing constantly while the game loads, thus taking way way more in real life time than it actually takes to beat the game, and we call that "faster?" I dunno it just... feels odd?

Secondly, the main argument against consoles is that if you use RTA it becomes pay to win, when the answer there would be to just split consoles into their own categories. I've read the "but that would clutter the boards or potentially leave some categories underran" but like... who... who cares? I mean I guess I just don't see how that's a problem when countless other games have SO many categories that we can't just split the consoles to begin with. When "cluttering the boards" is used as an argument, what's the actual problem here? The aesthetics of the website? I guess I just don't get it. And if a category seems "underrun" again, why is that a problem? How does the amount of runners in a category make it more or less valid?

Finally, couldn't the "pay to win" argument come into play for PC as well for people who can't achieve 120 frames etc to do some of the stuff other people do? Even when a run is stated as 60, it seems that there are parts where people turn it up to 120 (like the elevators) etc? Sorry, it just seems like so much of this is a bit crazy? I'm having a hard time following the logic behind some of these choices. If anything, it feels like forcing IGT and "no death" on console players is going to dissuade them from even playing. We really thought that a couple of seconds of faster loading was worse than having to have a flawless run every time?

What? Capcom certainly didn't decide the rules of speedrunning. Yes, they built the game the way they built the game, but ultimately, it boils down to the fact that a select handful of people, not Capcom, said "these are the rules" and everyone is just expected to go along with it or, it's apparently not "valid." Like, not to burst your bubble, but technically everything is made up here, all the rules, everything. There's certainly no stopping anyone from starting a timer, then ending it and saying "this is my RTA." It's just kind of sad that by doing so, they're going to be told it's not "real" or "official" and therefore won't get a board to compare their RTA times with other people's RTA times.

When you say there isn't much the moderators can do about it, like... what does that even mean? Who made the rules then? Who decided IGT over RTA if not the moderators etc?

I saw another thread on here breaking down the whole frame rate swapping etc etc. And ultimately I'd say I agree with it, but somehow having an IGT say "1:30:00" when you really spent 1:40:00 playing is somehow more of an accomplishment?

It's just, I don't know. I kind of feel crazy here with not understanding some of this because the rules seem heavily swayed towards PC players, and forcing console players to go along with it in the end. Not being able to die a single time in a run just adds a ton of stress AND extra time, especially if I was to ever try to learn something like Village of Shadows. Chris's part in that is insanely hard, and while I'd love to learn the run, slipping up and having to restart there from a simple death makes me go "nevermind." IGT, especially on console, feels 100% more like it's going to dissuade people from running than RTA would. We apparently don't want to gatekeep, but at the same time, make rules to make console runs harder to submit, therefore encouraging people play on PC.

Feels like there's a lot more red tape and hoops to jump through to speedrun a game I really love, and that's just like... super unfortunate, when it doesn't NEED to be this way.

@LeonShredfield The boards are already split in PS5 competing against XSX and PS4 competing against XBO. Not sure what other splitting you would like?

Also, i'm not trying to be mean here or anything, but it should definitely be possible by the majority of runners to not die to either baby skip or the water lever level, it's all practice.

We realize it's not optimal in any way shape or form, but capcom decided the IGT should go backwards if u die (for god knows what reason) and that's why we needed to add the "No dying Rule" in console, it would be too easy to get a good time while technically losing 30 seconds.

Also just to touch on the website thing, the amount of complaints we got over the website on launchday, where the boards had more categories showing upfront, was astounding, hence why we cleaned it up.

We litterally asked the community and a ton of console players about what timing they would rather like, hence why ZGL made an entire post about it and relayed all the information to us, hence how we came to the ruling of IGT over RTA.

Wasn't EVER just a mod decision, can guarantee u that much

Rta would be more pay to win for consoles as there would be no reason to pause during certain areas that help to load

Capcom changed where the igt would or wouldnt pause and there wasnt many places that had hidden loads in previous REs if any. The inventory and duke igt pause is a big issue as well.

For PC a timer was made that was more like the previous RE igt as well as other pauses console obviously cant get. It seems to be a mix of RE4 load remover and the old in game timer for REs like re2r or re3r.

If the igt didnt pause during duke or inventory and did pause during cutscenes. Im sure igt would be used for both PC and console

Correct

@nicowithaC , no you're right about the not dying thing. Like 100% it eventually just comes down to getting better there. I suppose it's just frustrating right now in the learning process of all of this, because it's like "welp, time to start over."

I guess my logic with splitting was that if each of the four consoles are split (since they ARE all different hardware after all) then there theoretically shouldn't be an issue to have RTA for them then, because the whole "they load differently" thing goes out the window. But yeah, then I get that apparently people will complain that the boards are cluttered, etc. Lose/lose I guess there.

Just a guess as to why Capcom has the IGT go back if you die, I'd say it's purely based on the fact that they have a "speedrun achievement" in the game, so they were trying to appeal to the more casual player who could just reset an area as many times as needed to make sure they were able to get it. Just a guess though.

Last question then I'll drop it haha, would there ever be a possibility of adding an "optional" RTA? Not so much like it's own category or section, but sometimes you see on boards (like hollow knight) 2 times shown like "Time With Loads, Time Without Loads." Maybe could do that for these with like "RTA IGT" or whatever. And if a person dies or restarts or something then their IGT gets voided out with like "--:--:--" but their RTA still shows up. I dunno. Just an idea.

Anyway thanks for answering the questions. Not trying throw a wrench into anything, just trying to get a better understanding of all of this.

@LeonShredfield With the logic of seperating the consoles like that we'd have to split the PC runs by processors and maybe even GPU aswell then, it's just not feasable unfortunately.

I dont see us using RTA at all on console no, could be proven wrong in the future, but personally I dont see it becoming a thing.