Resident Evil 3: Nemesis Forum  /  Grenade Launcher tool for runs and changes in the moderation of RE3 (Locked)
  silentkastersilentkaster

That's not what I said.

If you want to know more about magnum route, go here.

https:/​/​www.​speedrun.​com/​re3ce#Magnum_Route

And click, "Rules."

Literally only difference is no GL can be used. Any other weapon is presumably permitted.

And to get us back on topic, no, I would also not be in support of a "magnum tool" for that category.

 
  TheNevsTheNevs

and you still thinking the rules are fine?
double submit your run OMEGALUL

 
  silentkastersilentkaster

That's not an argument.

Anyone else have an argument or...?

 
  RebeccaRERebeccaRE

Hey guys, we want solid arguments, not drama or people fighting like childs. I know we can get a peaceful discusion here, thank you.
I'm agree with the tool because gl/magnum RNG is always time lost for attemtps and after the change, game could be more "competitive", but the rng in puzzles can't be touched. RNG is part of the game, but I understand that gl/magnum can be annoying.
I'm open minded to listen and offer better decisions for the game and community.

William_NevesWilliam_Neves, AdrianMambaAdrianMamba and 3 others like this. 
  silentkastersilentkaster
(edited: )

Quote

but I understand that gl/magnum can be annoying.

Yes, so is aquacure.

Yes, so is six change.

Yes, so is bad worm RNG for runners who have one cycle worm or who need it to PB.

Yes, so are bad basements with multiple turbo zombies.

Yet, presumably at some point, you'll have a run where only the best or close to best RNG can be used to beat it.

This is the official place of runs. Where GDQ would come to check leaderboards and select potential players. Where players who are wanting to speedrun the game would come to check out strats and times, etc.

So Orch's argument about a home monopoly game is completely invalid. You are not running your own Monopoly game out of your house that uses free parking as a windfall for all the Community Chest/Chance cards, even though that's not in the Monopoly Rule book. You are going to an official Monopoly tournament and saying, "Change the rules to suit how I want to play."

This is the official board of speedruns and where the competition will be scouted, official guides produced, etc. And if you want to pay for and run your own board somewhere else for RE3 and use any tool you want, there is nothing stopping you. But to ask the mods of a game to modify the game because, "It's annoying," is not an argument.

You can play Claire A on RE2 and get a Grenade Launcher every time. You can play Jill Any% RE1 and get a grenade launcher every time.

And if your only counter argument is, "But I don't want to run those games," I would say to you, "But you knew what you were signing up for when you played. You can beat the game with the magnum. In fact, probably 90% of the runners that have runs submitted on the board or more can still PB with the magnum." That is still any%, and nothing is stopping you from submitting a run with the magnum to both CE and the main category.

As a Nemesis% runner as well as Any% runner, it's far more annoying to me, as I have two large reset points before the locker with the basement and Nemesis 1. Yet I am absolutely aware that the game might have a magnum in store for me no matter what RNG I get with Nemesis. And Nemesis% is far less forgiving with the magnum.

So again, convenience is not an argument. If it were, then there would be no argument against just modding for perfect RNG all over the place. Make it very convenient for every runner. No turbo zombies (or consistent turbo zombies), always same password, all zombies fall at book, etc.

kenshireandokenshireando, WitchRainWitchRain and 4 others like this. 
  RebeccaRERebeccaRE

@silentkastersilentkaster I'm not saying is an argument, I'm just saying I understand that some people say "GL RNG is annoying". You know I'm a console runner and I have to deal with more bad luck than pc, but I'm just trying to listen the PC runners and talking peacefully.
Yeah RNG in puzzles are unfair too and dealing with bad RNG is one of the most important skills in the game, but for me magnum/GL is just a hard reset if you try only Any%. You can still save time with bad RNG in puzzles and people with good movement can deal with pharmacy RNG, for example, and not losing a lot of time with adravil or aquacure, but the locker is nothing more than a "insta reset".
My decision depends of your votes, but I'm trying to listen both parts.

William_NevesWilliam_Neves and TamsterTamster like this. 
  TamsterTamster
(edited: )

This is going a bit too far, look, i voted no, even though i was running the game today, and 80% of the times i got a magnum from the locker, most of the runner voted yes, so theres nothing much you can do with your "valid" arguments", that's what a votation is, you can't win 1 vs 10. (That was for silent)

 
  silentkastersilentkaster
(edited: )

Quote

but for me magnum/GL is just a hard reset if you try only Any%. You can still save time with bad RNG in puzzles and people with good movement can deal with pharmacy RNG, for example, and not losing a lot of time with adravil or aquacure, but the locker is nothing more than a "insta reset".

The problem is that this is just...incorrect.

You just said in your last post you wanted arguments, but then you say, "No, that's not an argument, but I'll use it anyway as justification." Huh?

I digress, though.

No, it's not an instant reset. If you don't want to use magnum, or you don't want to learn the magnum route, or you're too optimized to use the magnum, or you just think Jill is allergic to magnums (Yes, I'm being hyperbolic, but I'm trying to illustrate the point as clearly as possible.), then you have a choice to roll your eyes and reset.

But the fact is, you can complete the game with the magnum. You can submit it as a run to any%. If you choose to reset, that's on you. Again, you were aware of what you signed up for when you played this game. There is still a grenade launcher you can get, too. If you don't want to do that, fine. But again, that's your choice.

WitchRainWitchRain likes this. 
  TheNevsTheNevs

nah, we don't really care about any other rng
magnum = reset
6changes aquacure bad worm any other shit in the game = simply time loss

TamsterTamster likes this. 
  RebeccaRERebeccaRE

@silentkastersilentkaster My argument was "I'm agree with the tool because gl/magnum RNG is always time lost for attemtps and after the change, game could be more "competitive" and
"Yeah RNG in puzzles are unfair too and dealing with bad RNG is one of the most important skills in the game, but for me magnum/GL is just a hard reset if you try only Any%. You can still save time with bad RNG in puzzles and people with good movement can deal with pharmacy RNG, for example, and not losing a lot of time with adravil or aquacure, but the locker is nothing more than a "insta reset". When I said about "annoying part" it was just an opinion that I saw in PC runners and I understand it at some point. I'm thankful for your arguments and stuff, but your fight with Nevs was pretty unnecessary and you were acting a little bit defensive the first time.
Like I said, my decision depends of the community votes, but I wanted to give my opinion about the tool. I'm not a PC runner, but I'm worried about the future for the RE3 community.

William_NevesWilliam_Neves likes this. 
  vinevvinev

I think the difference between manipulating the grenade launcher pickup (which isn't exactly the way the GL tool work, i think it changes the item on your inventory slot), from any other thing that is decided by RNG in this game is that GL and Mag are two completely separated categories while anything else is just really part of that category as it is, and it just makes sense that someone would be able to choose the category they want to play. From my understading, people created the Magnum% category exactly because they wanted to incentivize people to play with the magnum, otherwise no one would ever play with it, since that route is that much slower compared to the GL; regardless if people can PB or not with it, you would have to learn 2 routes just because you got bad luck on one pickup, realistic speaking, most people will reset on Any% if they get a magnum, even if they could theoretically PB with the magnum.

This argument about cheating would even clash with something like SRT if taken to its ultimate conclusion, since you have real-time access to some information the devs of the game never intended you to have, like boss HP. It's also difficult to call this "cheating" in a speedrun sense, since, much like SRT, it doesn't affect how fast you can actually do things in game or gives you any kind of advantage in the run itself , it just affects that you're guaranteed everytime to play the category and route you chose to play.

I really want to play this game as my next speedgame at some point, that is why i'm even bothering leaving my opinion here. Since i'm not an actual runner or particularly knowledgeable about the game, take my opinion with a grain of salt.

William_NevesWilliam_Neves and TheNevsTheNevs like this. 
  allancgallancg

Magnum rng means reset because it implies a 50s timeloss for top players. You people make this sound like the game will crash if you get magnum. It will come a time when a 12s timeloss caused by aquacure will mean reset. Its not hard to see that the same logic apply to all the others rng. And if in the future someone appears asking to lock, for example, worm rng, based in what we're gonna deny that type of request? Just saying, this is a door that if you open, you cant close. I'm not against this because i like to get magnums, if this tool is allowed I will love to use it, but based in what you will limit me to use any other tool that I want?

WitchRainWitchRain, Se3cretSe3cret and Roxy_RoseRoxy_Rose like this. 
  allancgallancg
(edited: )

And honestly speaking, there is no evidence that if the tool is allowed the game you grow in popularity, so I dont like to use that as a motivation.

Edit: This game has 140 in the main board and mostly the same few people from the last time is here discussing this subject using the same arguments.

If you could make like 40 runners to sing up for this, then I would gladly refrain from the discussion.

 
  RebeccaRERebeccaRE

Thanks for the interesting point you have @allancgallancg !. I know @MoeMoe_7MoeMoe_7 can help you with those questions.

 
  silentkastersilentkaster

You're right Rebecca, I was rude to Nevs. I apologize, Nevs, publicly so that everyone can see it. I got worked up, and even though I disagree, that is no reason to be rude to you. Being snarky will not make my points any more valid. I will also leave my comments up, because I do not mind people seeing me be rude, and then apologizing for it if it's the right thing to do.

As far as the community goes, I will be removing my runs and leaving the conversation. I am in complete disagreement that a vote should even be the way to decide this. Your argument boils down to convenience, which I think you've admitted, and even you said that's not an argument. I've already explained to you why you're incorrect to believe that magnum is a hard reset, and you've not justified that, but just repeated the same argument.

So if the future of the community is to essentially just remove a game element and believe their run is valid, then fine. Best of luck to the community.

WitchRainWitchRain and RebeccaRERebeccaRE like this. 
  RebeccaRERebeccaRE

No problem! @silentkastersilentkaster, we opened this thread because is always good seeing every opinion of active runners in favor to make better decisions in the future than only making decision between mods. Maybe we gonna keep the game without any external changes, but I wanna make that decision with opinions of current PC runners.

 
  unbourne_sniperunbourne_sniper

Ive been away to long to really have to much of a valid opinion of this matter, however I will say there is nothing more enjoyable then grinding for weeks on end and finally getting that one perfect run that just lets you destroy your pb. Its never expected but its so much more fulfilling when you do it within the confines of the original games limits. Altering to make it more convenient for runners just takes away from the commitment of having to grind this game until you reach that pinnacle. Cause no matter if the WR is with the GL tool or not, There will always be someone trying to beat it cause they want to be the best.

Se3cretSe3cret likes this. 
  SmokethebearSmokethebear

I vote yes, But i strongly agree with Liv regarding a google vote system, This thread already started to derail and it hasn't been a day.

RebeccaRERebeccaRE and DeanoWebDeanoWeb like this. 
  hazebladehazeblade

I vote that there should be separate categories for Grenade Launcher and Magnum, respectively. Whether we choose to keep any% at all is a totally different conversation, but hypothetically if we separated the categories, and moved every run from any% into their respective categories, everyone would either stay at their current place OR move up on the boards, and still have the option of running either category, and using the tool would be allowed in favor of either. As a new runner to the game, I have been thinking about what is attractive to other new runners, and a big reason why I have avoided this game up until recently was a fear of disliking one of my favorite games because of a hard reset point. I think a big problem has to do with giving up the name "any%" with the game. Although any% can have various definitions throughout different games, it feels awkward to allow a mod that sort of defeats the purpose of having an any% category.

 
  DeanoWebDeanoWeb

I get why people would not be a fan of the tool due to the whole "you are modding the game" etc. However, the whole resetting over 1 gun thing compared to all the other RNG parts of the game isn't really a comparsion as someone aboved stated that is just time loss while getting magnum is now just F9 go again. I also feel allow the mod would also start to bring in new runners as I can imagine so people get put off by learning a game where 4 minutes in you reset based on a 50% chance and taking that away would help not just new runners but the people who grind this game 8 hours+ as a living for them to be able to actually get runs going instead of spending 2 hours resetting basements just to then get screwed by the game on magnum.

 
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