Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Forum  /  Legality of turbo buttons
  TheBarinadeTheBarinade

Before I start to try beat all of my old scores, I wanted to ask about the legitimacy of using a turbo button to optimally skip through dialogue in runs.

All of WickedxMage's scores use turbo, and I in turn have submitted the first two level runs of the first game also using turbo to best a couple of his times, which have beaten some of my previous mash-only scores. However, I've noticed he's deliberately avoiding any mention of his actual method in his YouTube comments which leads me to think this is an attempt to be sneaky about it.

https://i.imgur.com/v2gEYs7.png

You have to either map a button to function as a turbo button or use another controller which has such a functionality. For proof, there are runs of his with audio where you can clearly hear the controller buttons being pressed during menu navigation, and staying completely silent during the dialogue. Also, you can cross-reference these runs with a run using turbo to see they skip through dialogue at the exact same speed, so long as you're holding skip and the turbo skip button together.

For reference, my two IL runs both state the use of turbo and how one can do the same thing on their own in the video descriptions, and I've answered questions in my Discord server about this.

I obviously don't mind whether or not this is legal on the leaderboard, but there are some legitimate concerns for the other platforms where it may not be as easy (or possible) to use turbo.

Something like a Turbo and No Turbo tag could be used to separate the two via filters, or turbo could be outright banned, or it could remain legal with no relative change. I figured I'd just check here to see what the consensus and ruling would be. Thanks for reading!

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  TheBarinadeTheBarinade
(edited: )

I also know that all of Tsukumo's attempts use turbo too, as he was asking me about how to skip through text as quickly in my server! My 5:20 (obsolete) and 5:18 runs of The First Turnabout IL and my 20:28 run of Turnabout Sisters IL use turbo. All of WickedxMage's IL runs and his only full game run all use turbo.

I don't know of any other submissions using turbo, but I'll leave these here for easy reference and potential mod edits.

Edit: It looks like another turbo run was accepted onto the leaderboard so I'll go with "it's legal" for the time being.

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  TheBarinadeTheBarinade

Yeah, I'm happy to use turbo.

 
  WickedxMageWickedxMage

I'm happy to speed run.

 
  Wipeoutjack7Wipeoutjack7
(edited: )

Hello all! Very sorry I wasn't on this thread earlier. I get 100+ SRC notifications a day, so its not much of a surprise I missed it haha. Please DM me on SRC or Discord next time, I always get messages that way 😄

I was not aware of turbo buttons being in any runs at the time of verification (although I did wonder how you guys were getting such good times 🙃).

Obviously its a problem that runs with turbo and runs without turbo are being accepted on the same leaderboard.

Instead of making a firm decision on whether or not Turbo button use should be allowed, I think the right decision is to let the community decide.

The general speedrunning scene's consensus is that turbo buttons shouldn't be allowed, and I'd also agree with that (maintly because a lot of timesave in ace attorney comes from mashing anyway haha), but I'd love to hear others thoughts on the matter, so please respond to this forum post regarding your beliefs on turbo button usage.

If people want it to be banned, all runs using it will be removed from the leaderboard. If people want it to be allowed, a different category will be made for all runs using it, as I believe it is a big enough advantage over players who dont use it.

TsukumoTsukumo, TheJayJayTheJayJay and 2 others like this. 
  WaitlistedJayWaitlistedJay

At first, I was gonna say to make a separate leaderboard. Now, I think it should be completely banned.

On PC, an auto clicker is used for turbo runs. Some auto clickers are faster than others though. For example, the auto clicker TheBarinade uses breaks my computer, giving him an unfair advantage.

Not to discredit anyone using turbo, I would be happy to use it if it could be the same speed for everyone.

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  TheBarinadeTheBarinade
(edited: )

I think I share the sentiments above, there's a lot of inconsistency between platforms, and the use of turbo is generally considered to be cheating in most speedrun communities. I'd vote to ban.

Also, if you need any assistance spotting turbo runs, I'm happy to help in any way I can! Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Edit: SramX_'s Original Cases in 1:47:29 run is the only other turbo run aside from the ones mention in my original reply above.

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  WickedxMageWickedxMage

if your actively running the game I will take what you say more seriously, I am not going to harm my hands and wrists to complete this game as quickly as we can. Separate the categories, or don't. Some games should allow turbo as they are optimizing the main text, pokemon didn't have the amount of text this text based game is, and most of the game is in cross examining, moving the control to the right location, spinning the items and getting clues, yes turbo is not allowed generally, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed here. The nature of the game should allow for it, the only reason i used it because it wasn't explicitly states, yes some things are implied but not when the game is majority is text spam. My main issue besides the health of my hands is that the PC versions have multiple points for A or to push the text. But again those currently running the games like barinade states before he has no problem using turbo, unless he edited that out.

 
  TheBarinadeTheBarinade

To clarify, I am okay with using it if it's deemed legal, since I've already submitted two ILs with turbo. I'm not in favour of it being legal though, and the distinction there is important. This is a position I've come to after considering the problems associated with turbo use.

My main concern that prompted me to make this thread was to find out what the ruling was so that I wouldn't run the game with turbo for many more hours only for those runs to be removed later.

TheJayJayTheJayJay likes this. 
  WaitlistedJayWaitlistedJay

Hmm, what about making separate leaderboards? That could work for everyone.

I suggested misc categories in TheBarinades stream.

 
  Wipeoutjack7Wipeoutjack7

Thank you all for your input!

Due to the communities general consensus and trying to keep it as fair as possible between platforms, all runs using turbo will be removed from the current leaderboards. I'd appreciate if all who had submitted runs using Turbo would delete their runs themselves, or list which ones were done with Turbo in a reply to this thread.

I do like the idea of including a misc. category for those who'd like to run using turbo, so I'll be setting that up in the future as well!

Thank you!

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  TheBarinadeTheBarinade
(edited: )

On an unrelated note, I've just noticed that this run (https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/yd93g2wz) is a PS4 run on the Original Release leaderboard which should be moved to the Trilogy Release leaderboard.

Back to the topic at hand, I've deleted my turbo runs from the leaderboard. Here's a list of all the turbo runs currently on the leaderboard yet to be removed:

Original Cases
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/z536wwdy
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/y6604gpy

All Cases
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/yw0d7qnm

The First Turnabout (IL)
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/z53ndwny
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/zx6dr6kz

(Obsolete runs)
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/ylv2r73m
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/y4evronm
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/m75j714z
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/z1o76vjm
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/ywd269pz
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/yj6qd9nz
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/ywd26v2z

Turnabout Sisters (IL)
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/ywd2l30z
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/zn3d59ly

(Obsolete runs)
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/yj6q91gz
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/zxd0q0gy
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/zq4p8d1m

Turnabout Samurai (IL)
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/ylv5jp2m

(Obsolete runs)
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/y8rn3k1m

Turnabout Goodbyes (IL)
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/z1o766jm

(Obsolete runs)
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/y6r8lnjy

Rise from the Ashes (IL)
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/y91wpqnm
https://www.speedrun.com/pwaa/run/y2dollwz

Wipeoutjack7Wipeoutjack7 likes this. 
  Wipeoutjack7Wipeoutjack7

Tysm for compiling that list!! I've gone ahead and moved all of those runs over to the new "Turbo" category. Feel free to resubmit your turbo runs to that leaderboard as well 🙂

TheBarinadeTheBarinade likes this. 
  TheJayJayTheJayJay

While I don't run this game anymore, I do believe the use of Turbo should be banned personally.

Anyway the main reason I'm replying to this thread is just to remind @Wipeoutjack7Wipeoutjack7 to implement these changes to the other AA games in the series.

WickedxMageWickedxMage likes this.