I'll stop with the explanations and just ask some questions...

If we separate PC from consoles, do all the consoles get separated as well? Or do they remain on one console board?

What do we do about emulators? Should they be banned outright, or kept on the console board?

Should IGT at least be kept as a secondary timing if these changes are made?

Should there be video evidence of all runs? If not what would suffice?

The whole reason the timing discussion even started was because of an issue that was being reviewed regarding a submitted PC run and its legitimacy. At that time, I wasn't even a moderator of this game, but I was asked to give insight on it. The timing discussion came about after that. It was really something that was brought up within that group discussion, and I was just a part of it. Most of what I did during that time was present my knowledge of the variances between the different versions of the game.

A lot of people in that group have run the game, or are at least familiar with it enough to know how it plays. People who weren't familiar with the game really didn't have opinions on the matter. The only people outside of that group at the time who I felt would have offered more to that discussion were you and Bertin, as he was a long-standing record holder and player, and you were actively playing the game at that time. He was the only Sonic R moderator who wasn't in that particular group, and to be fair I had suggested that he be added ASAP. Another person in that group who kept regular contact with him said that they were in the process of inviting him in. For whatever reason, that took way longer than it should have.

I can't justify not keeping you up to date with the discussion and changes, and I really should have at least given you that courtesy, being that I was discussing the game with you leading up to the changes. I will hold accountability for my negligence on that matter and I apologize. The most I did publicly was make a forum post on the game page a few days prior to the changes, but that clearly is not enough as it seems no one really follows these discussions. What it really comes down to is that this was all discussed and handled too quickly. It was unexpected and noninclusive to some important people in the community.

I have been open to discuss this for the past 6 months, and so far Bertin has been the only person to approach me about it around the time these changes were made. He has not replied to any of my responses back to him, but hopefully we can discuss it here and now and remedy this. I'm not sure if he contacted any of the other moderators about this, but if they have spoken with him on the matter, it's unbeknownst to me. I realize the frustration that people may have with these changes and the way they were handled.

Well, I certainly want to apologize for the way I handled the shifting of times. I did not do the best job in giving ample warning about it to other runners, nor to Bertin. Yes, I personally MADE those changes to the leaderboards. However, there was a discussion between the Sonic Moderation group that took place, and an overwhelming majority of people (particularly those that are familiar with the game) suggested the switch to IGT.

I will echo this once again...I do not believe that IGT is a perfect end-all solution to the LBs, either. Considerations on making different boards and banning PC were made. Frankly the banning of PC is at this time highly unwarranted, but I am open to discuss splitting the leaderboards by console. Switching to IGT was done hastily, but this was mainly because there was a severe misrepresentation of actual skill level between RTA runs over different consoles that needed to be addressed ASAP. And at the time, more people were submitting runs on PC that had previously never submitted runs at all. Not sure if it was a coincidence, or because people were seeing how a bad run could place top 3 so effortlessly.

I want to make things right in terms of community opinion, and I'm sure I've lost a lot of respect and angered some people due to my role in changing things. I'd also like to do what is best for the leaderboards, and there will likely be no unanimous decision on this, but perhaps we can do something to at least make it a functional and fairly represented speed game.

I will give my insight on your points, just for the record. Hope that is okay for the sake of discussion. Really sorry this whole ordeal created a bit of tension between you and I, but hopefully we can move past that and work out some sort of solution.

1. Example 1 is a valid one, and definitely has been considered as a potential problem. The only real determinant of time we have that is not the results screen in the options menu is that the timer does stop for a small amount of time once the finish line is passed. Poor video quality can potentially make it hard to decipher those numbers, which obviously could pose an issue to any moderator.

2. I also agree with this in that menus can be a big part of the run.

3. Celebration skip. This was probably the biggest issue that I had with trying to justify IGT. This is a timing trick that does require player involvement, and because of that I will admit that it is something that I did not want to take out of consideration with run timing, but we couldn't think of a proper way to account for it.

---Example 2 and 3 are mainly issues that potentially arise for 100% categories, as menuing is not as involved in Any%. Unless character changes are made from Knuckles, the only menuing issue would be accidentally selecting something other than Radiant Emerald, since the order of the first 4 races is not really important. The cutscene skips though are big ones, but justifying the use of PC times on an RTA board with all other versions meant that those PC runners could have worse race times compared to console runners, miss all celebration skips, yet still place in the top time spots overall because they were saving so much time skipping loads. A thought had crossed my mind: "I wish we could calculate 100% as RTA, but any% with IGT". But at the end, that would have been even more of a mess, and just not make any sense.

1. Separate the versions: It's reasonable, and it would potentially solve a lot of problems. I don't want to inject too much of my personal preference into this, but I really like having a big, concise, and all-encompassing board across all versions of the game. That's not my sole justification. If we were to separate the boards, it would be solely because of the loading times. Generally the answer a lot of communities give to people who play slower versions is "Just get the faster version of the game." Or "If you want to take this game seriously, then you need to get be playing the fastest version game" etc. I do not agree with this sentiment, because as you mentioned earlier, PC version can be difficult to run, or entirely incompatible with some systems. Essentially we'd have to ban emulator runs, which run faster than the GC. Making a separate board for Emu is absurd (I'm sure we all agree). So we'd be losing a lot of times from our board by doing that. Just a necessary sacrifice to consider.

2. Ban PC version: Yes. It would be harsh, and would seem a bit unjustified. Most people I've talked to feel like this is not an acceptable option, since it is a legitimate release of the game. I don't think this is a viable option in the end, but I will say that I would certainly prefer that people consider playing on console.

3: Use In-Game Time for all versions: This is where we currently stand, and yes, it is certainly not perfect. It seems to be, at this time, the least destructive method to the integrity of the leaderboards. Most people do not show their results screen following their run, but as I mentioned earlier, the timer will freeze when crossing the line. I've addressed the inconsistencies and problems that could arise from that, so I won't push that any further. IGT would be a great option if it did consider menuing and cutscene skips, but unfortunately there is not yet a remedy to solve that issue.

The only remedy to menuing mistakes, or missed cutscene skips is to literally time those mistakes, and time the cutscene video, then add them in. That just seems overly complicated, but not completely out of the question.

I can retweet your post on this, and also contact a few people who may want to offer insight in this discussion if you would like. Just let me know.

Hello,

Sorry for my delayed response! You would simply just specify in the run submission that it is a Sega Saturn Emulator by selecting "Sega Saturn" in the console drop-down menu, and checking the box that says "Emulator".

We consider all of the runs to be on the same leaderboard. Since loading times from console to console vary so much, we calculate our run times by adding the total In-Game Time of all stages to alleviate the inconsistencies rather than have numerous different boards for the same game. So yes, you may play on an SS Emu, but it will be posted on this same board with IGT as it's main timing method.

Do you know which version most of the submitted runs use? And what version are you using?

So, my original stance on PC has only grown stronger. There have been runs that I would describe as "sub-par" that, because they are played on PC, have managed to creep toward the top of the leaderboard. The difference between PC and Gamecube loading times is so great, and in such a short game, it really affects the competitive edge. Hardworking runners who have put in numerous hours and resets are ranked deceptively lower because of the huge margin of error allotted for PC runners, which I personally believe to be unfair. Because of the lack of availability for a physical PC disc and the process needed to properly run the game on PC, I can only assume MOST runners will not be making the switch from GC to PC.

I DO NOT yet believe that PC should be banned from the leaderboards. However, I do believe that there should be some form of separation between console runs and PC runs. I generally do not think that it is a big deal to have all versions on one board, but because of how large of an impact loading times has on this game in particular, it is nearly impossible (if not completely) for a console runner with an optimal run to beat some of the "average" runs on PC.

What do you think?