Xiu's runs didn't seem as sketchy as other emu runs, such as the ones that used Gotvg platform. I would reconsider this.

As stated on the Ninja Gaiden 3 forum by aiqiyou after speaking with Xiu:

"The following text is that I translated xiuluowentian's words:

I'm sorry that my run has brought so much trouble to many players. Yes I used Gotvg emulator in my run. Such as 100T said, Maybe we should ban this emulator. In this emu, we could push left and right to climb the wall quickly. That's not the advantage of the keyboard but the emulator. In FCEUX we can not allow Left+Right/Up+Down. In Input Configuration we can allow it. So what I want to say of this game is ban Left+Right.

As for my Shadow of the Ninja run, I showed 'no movie' and push button, also I didn't used keyboard but joystick in this game. I have no problems if the mods remove my WR in NG3 because it is not fair with other players. But I can't understand of my shadow of the ninja run been rejected."

i'll refer you guys to the post i made in the rules forum. I won;t be verifying any non streamed runs on this board. I've put a lot of thought into this decision, if xui wants to stream his attempts, or upload a complete vod of attempts i'd be willing to consider that enough proof of skill. as of yet xui is a complete darkhorse in terms of his skill level, he just uploads crazy times and expects us to go "oh okay".

I don't think Xiu can stream on twitch..like almost every other chinese player. While he admitted that his NG3 run was to be removed, for this one he played with a gamepad and showed the "no movie" option. I agree on being suspicious, considering what we discovered lately, but xiu is cooperating. Also..like i said, the vod shows "no movie" and input display.

What's the difference between keyboard and thing used by charleon? OpieOP You removed Chinese run because it uses keyboard and didn't removed run with that thing that didn't have much differences? ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

edit: This looks like the most unfair speedrun.com move EVER! charleon used emulator and thing that looks like a keyboard to me and his run still here. Kappa Explain what the differences between his run and chinese run

edit2: also there is absolutely no way to prove that any emulator run to be legit. You can draw any text by lua scripts. You can write lua scripts that helps you with inputs (like you press a button and emu does a hard trick for you - like a dash jump in battletoads). You can recreate input display with lua script and it will show everything you want. It doesn't matter if run was streamed or not. Everything you have - players words

edit3: future freakin more. Kozzx PLAYED ON FREAKIN EMU!!!! He didn't have a conroller cam not any webcam! Where is the prove that he didn't used a keyboard and didn't cheat? And he used Fceux = welcome lua scripts / fake input display = total control of anything. So what we have? A his word? Same like with chinese run? Nope? Oh! He are moderator. So he didn't have to prove anything. He can submit anything he want Kappa Exactly like Todd Rodgers Kappa

https://www.speedrun.com/Jackal/run/1zx1enky - this game have really hard tricks that can be easily done with emu tools. No comments / controller cam = nothing => Recorder in the same way as Shadow of the Ninja's chines run

https://www.speedrun.com/lifeforce/run/jy98k7kz - exactly like a Shadow of the Ninja run. Even have same dian4ying3 text.

https://www.speedrun.com/pizzacats/run/7z0nlpom - this game have really hard frame perfect boss quick kill that can be easily made with emu tools. Pretty much the same thing.

Why k0zzx run, charleon run and those WRs of those games are still here if there is no difference? Only because Shadow of the Ninja in big 20 right now? I'm pretty sure there are a lot of runs like this on speedrun.com

i don't get what is so hard to understand about. Stream attempts. at no point did i mention emulator being an issue. If they at least give me some context to go by, like a time gradually improving, not just "hey man, i know no1 knows me but here's an awesome time, i didn't cheat, take my word for it". And again, i'm not saying i'm not willing to verify their runs in the future, but i'd like 2 things to change if they do, 1. use some actual software to record, 2. if ur going to claim wr, send me the video of that session of attempts, something to gauge skill level, I'm painfully aware people aren't happy with this decision, but if some1 else wants to take over the mod spot for this i'm more than willing to step down, i'm just not ok putting my name as the verifyer under those runs.

"like a time gradually improving, not just "hey man, i know no1 knows me but here's an awesome time, i didn't cheat, take my word for it". - this doesn't prove anything. You can make it look like you improving over the time and still use cheats. It's absolutely doesn't matter. "Stream attempts." Streaming attempts don't prove anything. It's hilarious! It's the same excuse as Billy Michel's. Like you have to play while crowd watching. You can stream and still use unfair key binds, lua scripts, prerecorded runs. "if ur going to claim wr, send me the video of that session of attempts" - it's possible to fake as many attempts as needed.

edit: it feels like that you want to delete particular runs so you made this "rules" to do it. Because everything you say doesn't matter and all those rules doesn't prove anything.

edit2: there was absolutely no real facts that Chinese run was cheated / fake. You can say about any run that it's fake and there is no way to actually prove that it's not

Please, tell me how you gonna spot a lua script that does Quick Kill on Boss in Pizza Cats. Like you can press button and here it's - quick kill. Even input display will show like correct buttons presses that human can do. So you can make as many runs as needed. You can mix quick kills and failled kills You can play live. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO SPOT THINGS LIKE THAT. How streaming attempts proves something?

edit: i think until you have REAL FACTS that run was cheated you can't remove it or blame that who made it are cheater. Because any run can be blamed as cheated

edit2: or speedrun.com should make their own emulator that wouldn't have tools and would constantly connect to the speedrun.com server and check for cheats, what input device used or something like that. Only like this run can be proven to be real at 100%. Until that your decision sound like corruption and discrimination, because you don't have real facts that run was cheated.

at this point you're just argueing to argue, i've allready said what I needed to on this subject. I never called anyone a cheater or claimed the runs are cheated, I, ME, YES ME, am not comfortable verifying those runs. If you want run the game put a time down, get mod status and verify them yourself, I'm not putting my name on those runs.

So it's the same situation as when Billy Michel didn't submitted other guy Donkey Kong WR? Kappa I never though that speedrun.com gonna fall as low as twin galaxy Kappa

edit: if you don't want to submit other peoples runs and you can't explain why with using real facts then you can't be a moderator in my opinion. And you can't have your own run to be verified by yourself. Because this is exactly how corruption looks like

so personal opinion doesn't matter is what you're saying?. I as a mod think those runs are bogus so i'm not verifying them, call it twin galaxies call it what you like, I gave my reasoning as to why i think those runs are bogus and why i don't trust the players submitting those runs, if thats not enough for you I don't know whats going to be, and this is the last I will input on this discussion. again feel free to become a mod and verify them yourself.

I know I probably won't be able to change anything, but I just want to give my two cents on this decision, and why I think it's a bad idea.

1. Removing these times will erase some important historical data of this game. The top 2 runs prior to the removal featured very different strats for the stages which saved almost 20 seconds in total. New western players who plan to run this game might not find those videos when trying to compete for the top score, which I think is sad.

2. Referring to 1, China has done some tremendous work on this game. I was completely blown away by the 10:50, and it really felt heartwarming to how some new fresh eyes on the game can create something even better. I was very happy that the work we'd all put into the game was developed even further.

3. I can't recall who it was that submited the run a year or two ago, but I fairly recall a chinese player submitting a run which clearly used the turbo function (jumps in narrow corridors in 4-2), I really hope this incident doesn't have any bearing on this decision.

4. This is my personal analysis of the 10:50 posted on twitter when it happened: https://pastebin.com/1WQ4Vsdn . I have no doubt that both the players actually have great skill in this game, since gathered from my pastebin both has even greater knowledge of the game than I do. And knowledge of the game at that level is nothing you gain from cheating. I know a lot of people were very suspicious about the 10:50 when it first got released, but after spending hours dissecting it, I found nothing suspicious other than 3 frame perfect container-slashes, which is far from impossible with a bit of practice.

5. It's very sad to me to alienate runners just because they don't have the same preconditions as we do. I know for a fact that many Chinese players stream to the Chinese equivalent of twitch.tv, can't recall what it's called, doiyavuTv or something? It's only to the western world that Twitch.tv is an obvious choice.

6. I don't really understand what the problem is with using a keyboard. My opinion on input method is that it doesn't really matter. If you really put in the time you can rock with a guitar-hero controller (pun, rock!). There are pro's and cons to every input method, but none that I can think of as holding a "definitive advantage", concidering you are tempering your muscle memory with each playthrough you make, and be it fingers or wrists that does the motion, the fact still is that the player did all the inputs with his body, showing deep understanding of timing and applying it to perfection. There are fightinggame pros that plays on a midi piano because it suits them, for instance. I might have overlooked something crucial in this point, but currently I don't see the issue, since every input-method available to man could be "cheated" behind the scenes, as Koh1fds pointed out.

7. It's also a belief of mine, that times added to a leaderboard should be a lot harder to take out than put in. There are some wonderful examples about cheaters and investigations that has been done in the broad speedrunning scene these past months, proving without a doubt that some runs are purely fake. I can not feel that way about these times being removed though, since they are based on suspicion, with no evidence whatsoever. Was the players even contacted about this prior to the deletion? Was there any investigation done at all rather than being suspicious? I just can't feel allright with this given the few facts in this post.

8. I don't know how the rules for the game looked like before this incident, or even before the chinese runs were added. But I'm sure it didn't say anything about the prerequisites that judged these runs to be removed. But personally the only thing that was really suspicious to me was the run that actually had an input-playback display. I do not know if that one was one of the runs that got removed though..

All in all, it really saddens me that the runs were removed for the above reasons, and I really hope Chinese players won't be discouraged from submitting new times in the future

Well everyone is basically saying that removing those runs was maybe too much. Imo kozzx you should listen to the community (btw there are even other mods so..) because what they actually said makes sense. No One is arguing Just because, their points are legit.

Also..i don't wanna accuse anyone, but sanaefroggy's issue proved the obvious, that is you can create even an entire fake stream with FCEUX, with failed attempts, PB, WRs, anything. You just need to have patience and make a long movie file, no real effort needed. So..an FCEUX / Bizhawk player can fake every stream of his, with noone noticing it. So...no..streaming live doesn't prove anything.

Cmon guys. I don't think that you even know how powerful fceux and bizhawk are. Prerecorded runs are just childish stupid way to fake things. It's pretty easy to cheat using other tools and actually play live Kappa It doesn't matter if run was streamed or not.

edit: all those "no movie", input display, any other hud thing / message are easy to fake. It doesn't matter if those things are shown

edit2: So you have to allow that chinese run or delete all other suspicious emu runs. Because they are on the same level of trust Kappa You have to start from your own run k0zzx

Please give this a look for more information on keyboard vs controller context, there is a LOT discussed there: https://www.speedrun.com/ng3nes/thread/n8fh1

I think the main point is being missed. That is that speedrunning for records, whether that be WR or 50th place, is in fact, a record. It will be put down in history forever. Having a record of any kind can mean fame and fortune within the community. If you achieve a WR, you're likely to get more followers, which may or may not mean monetary gain. If you have 50th place how could it mean the same? People to watch the grind or if you're like many speedrunners, your goal is quantity rather than WR.

Speedrunning, at its core, comes down to "Demonstration of skill", as LCC joked about. It should be an action based solely on one's ability to play the game. Does it mean different things to different people? I don't know of any other meaning to that. You play the game, on equal and fair playing fields, meaning no enhancements, no advantages, fair and equal. Where everyone has the same opportunity for a WR as everyone else if they are willing to put in the time and effort to grind it.

What if you found out that Michael Jordan had some advantage at basketball or a Guinness record was falsified (Todd Rogers). Speedrunning is no different. Yes, you can use virtually any input device, this is true. However, as far as I know, only a keyboard + emulator provide the advantages being talked about.

Lastly, I think that all 'top 3' runs, faked, spliced, falsified or removed for any reason, should be saved to a different location on SR.com, for history or reference. There are always new things to be learned, either for detection reasons or strats. Personally, when I am learning a game, I save out the top 5 or so runs, just to review all the strats of all players and see if I can improve on them. When I decide to run this game, the top runs have already been removed, and with them, the strats. I'd love to be able to find them at some point for nothing else than study material.

Please look here for the perfect example: https://www.speedrun.com/ngnes/thread/lblyg Whitehat either saved the vods to Youtube or linked the original vod. Either way, they are preserved in the forum for future reference. Very useful.

Ultimately, everyone wants the same things for speedrunning, fair and even playing fields. How can we get there from here?

Just for clarification, the state of the runs on the board should represent the community consensus of whether or not the run should be listed. Specifically: Mods + Game runners + other NES runners in this case.

Feedback was asked for on this topic, but not many users responded until a change was actually made.

With regards to the specific reasoning in the thread. A: Most games that allow emulators allow keyboard runs as far as I understand. It's difficult to enforce someone using a controller on emulator unless you force them to provide video of their hands. In my opinion a rule about using keyboard is not really something that can be subjectively applied to certain runs. Player A can use keyboard but Player B can't doesn't make sense.

B: "The way they are recorded", "I won;t be verifying any non streamed runs on this board. "

Super Mario Bros has the following in the rules: "Times below 5:21.00 need a video. Due to the popularity of the game, times below 5:00.00 are treated with suspicion. To maximise your chances of having a run verified it is highly recommended that you stream all of your attempts and provide split files. "

No particular person has to verify any particular run I suppose, but the state of the board should be such that it represents community consensus.

Additional:

Legitimacy of a run is contextual. After discussion people seem to agree that the Gotvg emulator has inaccuracies that improve play. People generally seem to think the Chinese FCEUX port is an okay representation of FCEUX. FCEUX is a generally accepted emulator.

The runner doesn't stream and only provides video, which can be good reason to scrutinize, but the video shows some of the common FCEUX displays for no movie file being played. It's certainly possible to fake those with some effort, so we can't really know for sure that it's legitimate. There's no video of the runner or video evidence he plays the game a ton, or things of this nature. So it falls in this really gray area where the community needs to decide if it's listed or not. That call should be made by the community.

There's really no "innocent until proven guilty" or "guilty until proven innocent", there's just community consensus on whether or not the run meets a given standard.

i've made this easy and painless, I'm no longer the mod for this game, sum1 else feel free to take over.