From time to time users with varying reasons request their times not be listed on a board. Various communities have handled this in different ways, which leads to inconsistency from the site perspective. There has not historically been a site expectation or a rule on this topic.
Issues have occurred relating to this from time to time in the past, and issues have occurred on this topic prior to this site even existing. A common response to the situation seems to be the user taking the run down, or a substantial disagreement developing.
A rule on this would be worded something like the following: "If a runner requests their time not be listed on the boards, don't list it." Should the site have a rule like this?
Not really a bad rule, though in practice a better rule overall would be that runs must be submitted by the creator of the run themselves. Making submissions to the leaderboard an opt-in process rather than an opt-out process that they may not even be aware of.
I can't think of an exception to this, unless the content is released without any rights (very unlikely if the video is published on twitch or youtube). The content that a runner submits is his or her property, and these rights aren't compromised by submitting content to the site. They are allowed to be used here because the copyright holder allows it. Therefore, it follows that if copyrighted content continues to be used by the site against the copyright holder's wish, it is a violation of that material's copyright. However, if the moderator wants to keep the time listed without video evidence, that's within his or her rights as a moderator, but even in this scenario, the video link needs to be removed.
EDIT: Copyright status of videos is something that should be covered in the eventual FAQ
Alright, I'll post the dissenting opinion here.
I don't believe a time known to be legitimate should be removed or missing from a leaderboard. A missing time just creates confusion to people outside of the community, and people inside the community still know of and recognize the run and its holder. For the standard viewer/person joining a community, it creates a moment of confusion especially when the missing time(s) are at the top. I feel that allowing these runs to be removed is sabotaging the integrity of the leaderboards- perhaps a bit of an exaggeration, but imagine if all of the top 20 for, say, Super Mario 64 decided they didn't like leaderboards. Would pretending those runs don't exist be a desirable result?
That said- I'm in favor of removing identifying features from runs that the runner wants removed. The time stays up, the runner isn't identified, the boards stay accurate, and everybody wins. Which features specifically get removed can vary from game to game, but I don't think anyone should have an issue with "Anonymous" and a time next to it, no console, no date, not even a video.
tl;dr Full run removal: absolutely not Removal of everything but the time: sure. The time is what's important.
Personally, I think removal of anything from the leaderboards is silly and would prefer nothing be removable. Even if you didn't post it yourself.
Yes, absolutely, if a runner doesn't want their time listed it shouldn't be listed.
If a runner doesn't want their time on a leaderborad then they should have the right to not list it or delete it. I understand the desire to keep LBs "up to date and accurate", but it's really not the end of the world if a run isn't on there. Most involved runners of games will know of the run that exists but isn't listed and can point people to that run if a VOD exists publicly. But there is no reason to list it on the board if the runner doesn't want it.
It's kind of a "respect their wishes" kinda thing. People speedrun all the time without a care in the world about the LBs or how their times rank. If they want to speedrun without being involved on the LBs, then let them. Or if they want to remove themsevles from this hobby and removing their runs is what they want to do, then let them.
I don't personally think that adding just the time with "Anonymous" like Ihavenoname mentioned is a good idea because if you just list a time with no information about it, that is setting up the LB for disaster. What if a moderator does that then disappears from the site and the hobby. Now, a new mod steps up and has no idea what this Anonymous time is because the runner who got it existed before the new mod's involvement in the game. There is no user, no date, no video, no proof of any kind. They'd probably want to remove it for the sake that in an uneducated person's eyes, that run could be faked. At that point it's not a case of accuracy, it's a case of confusion.
In the end, if someone deletes their times, their videos, etc. don't go and re-upload them on another YT channel or re-add them to the LBs, just let that person remove their speedrunning presence in peace. And doing the Anonymous no information other than the time is just too much potential for issues without any real gain imo.
As you say, involved runners of the game will know of the run and who ran it.
New mods would presumably be involved runners who have heard the details, making that a non-issue.
Adding a comment to the anonymous run simply stating "this run was viewed by X mod, it's a trusted time, runner wanted information removed" doesn't have any issues, as it answers any questions and doesn't raise "well wait if that's a good time, why isn't it on the leaderboards?" confusion. I'd argue that's a lot more confusing.
Maybe I'm blind to the potential issues, but there's definitely some real gain in accuracy and reduction in confusion.
True, what you've said would alleviate some of the potential confusion issues. My statement about a new mod being confused was more for smaller games where there is maybe only one mod and runs aren't posted frequently and moderation might change hands via the request thread on here when a new runners comes into the game with runs waiting. But you're right, for larger communities they wouldn't have that issue (and not many smaller games would probably see this).
I guess we just differ on the importance of accuracy in LBs. I understand the desire to have all the times listed, but I also see LBs as kinda meaningless since this hobby existed before LBs and would exist even if some times are missing. Runner's decisions > LB accuracy to me, but I can completely understand reversing that.
Depends on what you think of overall leaderboard integrity and accuracy. If the community cares a lot about having every time listed on the boards for accuracy, list them all, no exceptions. If they don't really care that much and only really care about the top times, remove runs at request. I know the Sonic Adventure 2 community cares a lot about board integrity (directed at Drakodan) and will list all known times for the game, mostly pulled from SRL.
tl;dr: community's choice imo, I don't think this should be captured site-wide.
[QUOTE]If the community cares a lot about having every time listed on the boards for accuracy, list them all, no exceptions.[/QUOTE] Who defines "the community" for a game? Is it a majority, the LB mods, or some other group? Why does a community get to decide to do with a runner's run? That's like saying that the second a run is streamed on Twitch, the runner no longer has control over what happens to the run in regards to LBs. Just because someone does a run of a game or gets WR, doesn't mean they want to be represented on the LBs or be associated with the srcom community. This may seem silly but I know a few runners over the years who have had this sentiment. (it's why I feel so strongly about this, because Ive seen people get really annoyed at the insistence of having their run listed when all they want to do is remove themselves completely from speedrunning for personal reasons).
That's where my issue with this lies: I don't think anyone but the runner should get to decide what to do with it or whether or not to list it. If a run is listed for them and they don't care, then all is well. But if it's listed for them and they don't want it, the respectful thing to do would be to honor their wishes and remove it. I know if someone started adding runs of mine without my permission and refused to remove them the first thing I would do is delete the Twitch VOD and make the YT video private because it would irritate me that someone else would try to control how my run is represented.
I think I'd be more interested in ¤why¤ these people want their runs removed than whether or not a global rule is enforced. I feel like motive is an important factor.
[quote=Guy]Yes[/quote]>Member since 7 hours ago
Yeah, okay an account made for the purpose of responding here and is probably someone that shares his account with someone else and hiding who they really are.
Anyways, I'm more in favor of No, specifically when it's a World Record. All you need is a time and a name if it has been seen before by others.
Back when it used to be World Record for Crash 1 100% was held by WhipCPL. Whip deleted his account from speedrun and remove/private the run (I forgot which) but the time that he made remained.
There is the importance when you're the WR holder of a game and you decide to nuke all existence of your run, you just need the time.
Nuking your time off the board is a step which I dislike for this side, that's why mods would return the time of the WR... Then the person behind the WR decides to go as far as to taking a board down out of the only reason being "I'm right", now that's a step too far.
If it's any run then sure whatever, but if it's something that's a World Record. No. We need to know the time.
short version: What noname wrote.
No, this site is for recording times people have set, not for people to submit "their" content. This site should function more like wikipedia (an information resource) than a site like youtube, where people are choosing what information they want to present. If they really don't want to be credited for their time, then there's nothing wrong the time being up under an anonymous name, preferably with an unpersonalised video of just game footage.
Absolutely this should be the rule and I already enforce it on every board I moderate. If you don't want your run up, it won't go up. If you want to delete it, delete it.
Any other policy allows this site to be used as a vehicle for bullying.
How did you get bullying out of this
@kirkq I think it depends on what you want this site to be. What exactly is your goal and the goal of any other mods of this site in regards to what you're trying to build?
If the goal of Speedrun.com is to be the #1 official site for tracking WR's and top times in every game that anyone might possibly want to speedrun, I think you need to list everything and not really take into account what the runners think about it. If a runner gets WR and doesn't want his VOD to be seen, he shouldn't upload it anywhere in the first place. Otherwise he's asking for it to be acknowledged by the world and they're never going to want to let go of it. A site like this is an encyclopedia of knowledge, a historical record. It's important and must be preserved without bias for future generations of runners to use, look at, learn from, etc.
On the other hand, if the goal of the site mods here is to make Speedrun.com a flavor-of-the-month speedrun site that isn't to be taken seriously and doesn't have a long-term plan for its future, maybe you'd consider this to be more of a Myspace for speedrunners than a WR/PB tracker; everyone gets their own profile and you can dress it up real nice with wallpapers and custom icons, you only need to upload runs of games you want people to know you play, you can link to all your social media sites and no one will make you do anything you don't want to do, then you're 100% free and clear to let all of us decide how we want the site to look. There's room on the internet for a site like that. People love Myspace.
Personally, I'm here for accurate leaderboards and the convenience of having all of my runs in one place. I am a speedrunner. I came to Speedrun.com because I thought it would fulfill my speedrun needs, as the name suggests. Quite a few of the other people on this site likely share that sentiment. Keep in mind that during the X3 drama, one gripe that a lot of the X3 runners had was that this site was not as accurate as the MMLB.net site, so clearly it would irk them to see that these boards might not have all the runs listed. Of course with that having been said, those same people complaining about a lack of accuracy here were the ones keeping their runs off this site so as to enable themselves to complain, so I'm not really sure what that says.
I vote in favor of SR.com being an official WR/PB tracker with priority on historical records and little to no regards for whether or not we as runners complain later that we don't want our times listed. I think all runs should be submitted by the runner unless you have permission by said runner, I believe that permission should be in writing and it should be screenshotted and posted in the game's forum for all to see. I believe once that permission is given, the runner should accept that his run is entered into the database and that ought to be the end of it.
I reserve the right to change my mind or have it changed for me via open discussion at a later date, but as of now, I'm saying that this site needs to be legit. It's got too much potential to end up wasting it on giving in to the demands of silly salty people.
Preserve the run but if someone doesn't want to be attached to that run, then that's ok. The run itself should stay, though.