Flaws in speedrunning
8 years ago
England

"So because I haven't been running long enough, that means I can't have a logical say in the matter?"

You could have a logical say in the matter, but you'd first have to say something logical.

PurpleSun and xDrHellx like this
United States

@SuccintAndPunchy

And how, pray tell, does my rhetoric lack logic?

United States

Your rhetoric lacks logic because it's based on game-specific points that you're extrapolating to speedrunning in general, and then demanding that everyone run leaderboards to align with your vision.

That's the same as going:

  1. Emulators are inaccurate
  2. Leaderboards should be accurate
  3. All emulators should be banned
  4. Everyone go ban emulator now I will go on a tirade about it and ignore all refutations and only respond to the few responses that I can exploit logical fallacies on.

A bit of a strawman argument, but not by much.

Victoria, Australia
stoot
He/Him, They/Them
8 years ago

I'm not going to read through this entire thread, so I'll just answer each one myself.

  1. Different versions: You can select what console you're running on in every game on the website. You don't really need to create a new category for it, you can already see it. It won't show up on your profile as a WR, but you can say "I have the WR for <game> on <console>" and no-one will argue with you.
  2. Version-specific skips: Here's where I agree with you, if there are version-specific skips then categories or sub-categories should be added. However, if there isn't much interest on some consoles, I can understand why they only have 1 category for all of them.
  3. Modded PCs: I believe this has already been addressed. All PCs are different, and because of this, if the run doesn't factor out load times then it'll never be accurate anyway. With consoles, there may be a few different versions of each console, but there are a lot less of them.
United States

@Ihavenoname248

If you honestly think that that's what I'm doing then I don't know what to tell you. I even implied in my original post that my perspective was limited by only a few months. How could I possibly be generalizing here? But I can tell you, by the several people here defending their flawed system, I can extrapolate that the problem spreads much farther than just my "game-specific points".

And no. I'm not encouraging that anything be banned. So you were right in calling your example a straw man.

Cambridgeshire, England

Many people are defending the system that is working perfectly fine in their games because you generalized a problem you found in only two games. You suggested to ban every version aside from PC in every game, because you found a problem in two games. Your other suggestion to separate by subcategory is, pretty much but not in the same way, already in place. There's a nice box on multi-platform leaderboards that contains a drop-down list to filter out versions. This is a leaderboard site. Leaderboards matter. Go through everything on many leaderboards (not two), and it will make sense. I hope I caught the bait well, and that you have a nice day in hell. :)

xDrHellx likes this
United States

@PurpleSunDeryl Like I've said multiple times already, I doubt this is a problem exclusive to the two games that I've referred to. And if you would use your common sense, it's a reasonable assumption.

You seem to have missed the point where I said that wanting to ban everything but PC wasn't what I was pushing for. It was meant to show the logical fallacy in what Cyberdemon531 said about the point of speedrunning is to go as fast as you can. If that is what speedrunning is all about then why allow slower versions?

I'm already aware of that drop down box. It has been stated twice before. This following example doesn't apply to me at all, but I think that it will put the problem into perspective:

Let's say that a game that I'll call Game X has an SNES, a GENESIS, and a PC version. There is a runner of the SNES version and a runner of the PC version active. I'll call them Player S and Player P. So Player S has been playing for a lot longer than Player P has. However, Player P has WR because of the shorter load times. Player S, in reality, has the better IGT. Do you see something wrong with Player P having WR over Player S? It overshadows the more skilled player just because of the time you have to wait between each level. That's bs.

Like I've stated before, this doesn't apply to me in the slightest but it's a scenario that outlines the fundamental flaw in clumping versions together. The less skilled player has WR because of loads.

P.S. This isn't bait.

Bristol, England

Hey Brandon!

Yarumasi likes this
Cambridgeshire, England

With your scenario right there, there's a major problem and I feel stupid for not realising it before; subcategories - your main solution - wouldn't be any different from using the filter. If you split PC from SNES, you wouldn't be able to guess if Player S had a better time than Player P, subcategories or filters or neither. Subcategories are literally just another filter, but a more blindingly obvious one because they are one big sign saying "WE SEPARATE THINGS", so your solution is already there; you're just oblivious to it. Not using your common sense SoBayed . You'd only know if Player S is quicker than Player P by actually watching the runs and timing the loads yourself. Side note, so you could group SNES and Genesis together, you could just use a variable of PC or Console.

Plus, even a mong would know that PC would be fastest and so Player P's run wouldn't overshadow Player S at all. But even a mong would know if there are different versions, there are already different leaderboards. Different ways to show people going fast on different versions. Different WRs being obtainable.

Also, back to subcategories being just another filter - for HP1 PS1, the top two runners on the overall leaderboard also have a little competition going on the slower NTSC-J version, where the results are different. The overall WR holder also has a time on PAL, which is slower than the only PAL runner on the overall board. You'd know if you used subcategories. But you'd also know if you filtered. Your splitting solution is already there; do you need a big sign next to the version list saying "WE SEPARATE THINGS TO MAKE IT FAIR FOR RUNNERS WITH DIFFERENT VERSIONS"? And on another point, I have my "Going fast" argument set up already:

Just because the point of speedrunning is to go fast, doesn't mean you need the fastest version. If you're going fast on a slower version, you're still going fast. It doesn't matter if a run is 20 minutes long, or 10 hours long, if you're trying to go fast, you're trying to go fast. Different leaderboards, created by filters, can show that. The 2nd placed runner on the overall HP1 PS1 leaderboard went fast on the NTSC-J version, which goes at a slower speed, but has beaten the overall WR holder's run on that version. If the WR holder can beat 2nd place on the fastest version, but not on a slower version, who is the fastest? Who looks like they have the most skill? NTSC-J is only slower because of cutscenes and text-boxes, so the actual gameplay is the same, so why isn't the WR holder ahead again? Which brings me to my next point:

People care way too much about the status of WR. WR doesn't equal most skilled runner. It just means a runner did well enough (and in a number of cases got lucky enough - see any Pokemon, Final Fantasy, or Yu-Gi-Oh game) to get the fastest on the fastest version so far. And even if you separated versions, using filters or whatever, the fastest time on a single version is just by someone who performed the best in one attempt so far, who could've just got lucky.

Yarumasi, slendbed, and xDrHellx like this
Nova Scotia, Canada

dude I've never seen a worse post in my entire life, the entire thread is making great points about the flaws of your argument but you just deflect them...

the jist of it is that all platforms are viable to run on depending on the community, there are standards set but mostly on a community basis. run on the fastest platform

United States

@Yarumasi If that's what you really think is happening here then I don't know what to tell you. I could easily turn your very point around and say "I'm stating the flaws in speedrunning and everybody here is justifying these flaws". But as we all know that is not what is happening here. You can over simplify any situation to make it look like one side is in the wrong but the truth is that many mistakes were made in this thread. Singling me out is erroneous.

A common theme among human reasoning is that you only make an effort to understand something if it confirms your already pre-established bias. You don't take an equal effort to understand points that contradict your bias. It just doesn't work like that. So tell me? Did you actually make an attempt to understand my points or did your human bias take over?

And no, in the TS2 and 102D community the dreamcast and playstation versions are the farthest thing from viable. And as I've said I doubt this problem is exclusive to those games.

France
xDrHellx
He/Him, It/Its
8 years ago

Whatever

England

"A common theme among human reasoning is that you only make an effort to understand something if it confirms your already pre-established bias. You don't take an equal effort to understand points that contradict your bias. It just doesn't work like that. So tell me? Did you actually make an attempt to understand my points or did your human bias take over? "

this is a speedrunning forum not fucking psychology 101, shitcan this ridiculous attempt to look educated and smart while simultaneously arguing about the pettiest shit ty

you're making dumb points about playing video games fast and people are pointedly telling you to fuck off. Take a hint.

Nixxus,
Deleted
, and xDrHellx like this
United States

Okay so I'm just going to say two things here.

  1. "And no, in the TS2 and 102D community the dreamcast and playstation versions are the farthest thing from viable. And as I've said I doubt this problem is exclusive to those games." You're right, bad moderation isn't a problem exclusive to those games. But ranting about how 1 or 2 moderators aren't splitting off categories in a logical manner to the entire speedrunning community, and then continuing to rant about how things should be a certain way even though these decisions need to be made on a case by case basis, and THEN continuing to ignore any points that don't agree with your worldview is not the way to go about it. Just mention to the mods that the versions can't really be compared and should be split off, done.

  2. "A common theme among human reasoning is that you only make an effort to understand something ¤if it confirms your already pre-established bias. You don't take an equal effort to understand points that contradict your bias¤. It just doesn't work like that. So tell me? Did you actually make an attempt to understand my points or did your human bias take over? " I don't know about anyone else, but I've actually acknowledged your points whether they're valid or not. I've agreed when I agree, and pointed out the things you've overlooked and explained why I disagree in a lot of places. You've brushed off everything and continued with "this is how I think it should be WHY IS EVERYONE NOT DOING IT THIS WAY".

You're the one not taking an effort to understand why in general, categories are defined a certain way. You're the one not taking the effort to think about it and realize "you know, just because 2 games are doing it wrong doesn't mean that's the only way to run leaderboards and people have been running them fine for years before this, maybe I should bring it up to those specific mods".

Nice hypocrisy.

xDrHellx and
Deleted
like this
United States

@SuccintAndyPunchy

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe I AM smart and not just trying to appear as such? No. Of course you haven't. You probably think that everyone on the Internet is below you unless they conform with you.

I'm not saying that I am smart. Don't misconstrue my words. I'm getting you to think outside of your little box. You're not perfect. It would be wise to scrutinize the words of those you belittle. You might evolve for a change.

Deleted
likes this
England

you're a complete dickhead

Zachoholic and m13 like this
United States

@IHaveNoNam248

It's funny because I don't think you've read the same thread that I have.

"...continuing to ignore any points that don't agree with your worldview is not the way to go about it."

Almost every single post I've responded to in this thread has conflicted with my worldview. The only reason i didn't respond to you is because you seem to be the only sane person here. i agree with YOUR points quite a bit.

"You've brushed off everything and continued with "this is how I think it should be WHY IS EVERYONE NOT DOING IT THIS WAY"

It's interesting how people forget what is actually happening and apply these certain stereotypes to the situation when it has nothing to do with the situation. Like what SuccintAndPunchy said:

"shitcan this ridiculous attempt to look educated and smart"

He applied a stereotype to me just because he thinks negatively of me. I implore you to put more thought into what you say.

"You're the one not taking an effort to understand why in general, categories are defined a certain way. You're the one not taking the effort to think about it and realize "you know, just because 2 games are doing it wrong doesn't mean that's the only way to run leaderboards and people have been running them fine for years before this, maybe I should bring it up to those specific mods".

And I'm doing this HOW? I've learned a lot from this forum. There are things that I agree with. Would acknowledging that make you stop crying?

England

if everyone is responding to you negatively and applying negative connotations to your writing, maybe it's because you're communicating like a complete tosspot instead of just "everyone around me is stupid lol"

Sincerely, you come off like a complete tool. Fix this and you may find a more positive reaction.

United States

@SuccinctAndPunchy

I never once said that I was an innocent little angel here. I come off as a dick because that's my personality. What I don't like is when people accuse me of doing things that I've not done. I'm not trying to look educated and smart. I'm not ignoring every post that doesn't agree with me. These things are just objectively false.