Side by Side recordings of PSX Ogre Battle being faster than SNES
3 years ago

PS2 Slim with Fast Disc Speed on left vs SNES on right. Playing off real game disc and cart. Recordings are my own. Sorry I'm not ambidextrous and recorded on 30 fps phone.

PSX looks much faster due to: a ) The X button (A on SNES) loading a whole block of text versus SNES having to scroll line by line. b ) Movement speed 3 on PSX is ludicrous. c ) ▢ button allows queuing up to 8 movements in a row on a single unit.

~10 second loss on PSX loading per stage not enough for SNES to catch up.

New Game Tarot Cards Castle of Warren

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Krayzar likes this
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INteresting. Especially since the PSX save system allows for a lot in terms of testing and could possibly be exploited itself. I have the Saturn version - that might be worth a test as well.

NewSchoolBoxer likes this

Yes, save & load right before boss or buried treasure to reset the RNG seed. Should be easy to reset during a save to corrupt memory considering how much slower saves are. I'd probably only try on an emulator in case it's possible to ruin a memory card.

I have the Saturn version too! I really like the improved character icons and CHA and ALI change notifications. I suspect Saturn is the slowest due to the voice acting scenes but should still be tested. Plays fine on emulators.

What I want to see is a run for Saturn 100% that includes the extra 4 campaign stages and one for Sajemu Island. For those that don't know, Sajemu a single stage campaign like Fireseal that gives Justice ending. Name the lord サージェム (Sa-jemu in Katakana).

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Krayzar likes this
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I had all my tools out for the Xenogears Save Glitch run so I figured I might as well test how manipulatable the save system is on the PSX version.

So I tested literal save hacking with RPG maker, and luckily, Ogre Battle seems to have some sanity checks. You can write to the item tables using uncompressed RPG maker saves and it does recognize a corrupt save file as valid in the loading screen, but it doesn't seem to be able to load it. My guess is there's header info on both sides of the 2 block save that has to match up. Still might be possible - I'll do some more poking tonight - but it's kind of a parlor trick way to achieve things, so I'd honestly be glad it doesn't work.

That said, we can visualize where things are located in the save structure with this, and if there's ways to keep certain things in ram with saves, loads and resets, it might make things easier to find.

I'm almost positive Saturn is slower for the same reasons, but eh, if there was any major glitches, I'd be willing to bet they're on the Saturn version!

Okay, had a chance to test FIRESEAL timing, and it's approximately 20% faster with nearly the same RNG pattern. In general many levels would likely need an entirely different route as enemies are programed to move vastly different.

Did some more testing with saves and I'm confident the full saves and loads can't be manip'ed by RPG Maker hacking, but I've yet to test in game saves. I did get save corruption to work on full files - created a file that was LV59 by save swap trickery - but the game won't load them. I get a hard freeze on the second loading icon.

I'm convinced that PSX is wholesale faster though. Probably gonna have to convert my TAS work over.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
NewSchoolBoxer likes this

I too prepped for a cakewalk FIRESEAL WR on PS2 Slim with Fast Disc Speed b). What it seems is: a ) the speed of units and day progression are both accelerated from SNES, but at different rates b ) we know the AI makes RNG calls to determine unit movement behavior --with the increased speed, these calls happen at different times from before ----therefore our routing has to change

I timed Japanese SNES New Game to World Map to be ~1:15 versus ~1:30 in English SNES, so Japanese PSX should be fastest of all. You look at popular A Link to the Past, Super Mario RPG, Megaman X--competitive runners run in Japanese. BRB buying Game Shark to play imports.

That's awesome you looked at save hacking. I would also suspect Saturn to have the most bug potential. Thanks for video evidence. Seems like a good idea to create a saved game memory map. I guess that is for the best if we [currently] don't have a way to corrupt memory. But check this out from SNES Chrono Trigger:

Mechanics: It takes 2 frames to save the game in Chrono Trigger. some values between 7E2400 and 7E264F are overwritten in SRAM in order in the first frame; the rest of them and values in addresses after 7E264F are overwritten in order in the second frame. That means you can get a half-saved save file if you reset the game in the first frame of saving. Off course, this is an invalid procedure for the game, so the target data is deleted. In Chrono Trigger, however, you can load the corrupted data by pressing A and up/down key at the same time in the load screen.

2 frames! The up/down key is an illegal button combination in every competitive SNES game, with the notable exception of Super Mario Kart where it is embraced and people sand down the pivot on their controller. I like the YouTube video by ばんbann where he makes at least 30 attempts for 1 success. Would be very easy to frame advance on SNES and see our window.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Krayzar likes this
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Hehe, even by English standards, my current FIRESEAL run is probably under optimized by 10-15+ seconds. Please feel free to beat it!

Would be pretty crazy if the Japanese version could go sub 2 easy.

I own the Japanese version of Ogre Battle PSX but have no real way of playing it other than emulation. FYI, my PS2 seems to be one that can't do the Gameshark Disc swap tricks. Some of the later models like my Slim 79001 don't seem to allow the disk spin down method the Game Shark and FreeMcBoot PSX swap tools use unfortunately.

I have another video on the RPG Maker hacking process that I'll post up once YouTube stops doing whatever glitchiness it's doing. Great for visualizing stuff at the very least.

SNES corruption? Interesting! That should be fairly easy to TAS on the standard versions and Nintendo Power versions.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
NewSchoolBoxer likes this
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As a mod for other games, the thing to note here is that consoles are sometimes separated when one version is clearly faster.

Especially in this case where the PSX version is quite expensive, that really ought to be the case. (Add in that running on a PSX emulator is inherently slower than PS2 FDS, so that rules out doing things that way)

Krayzar likes this
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I agree @Dragondarch that would be the fair way to go about things. I'd personally like to see SNES and PSX/Saturn separated at this point. Seems like things are different enough to warrant it.

While things like Playstation ODE's are coming down in price, they're not there yet, not easy to install or use, and rare PSX games especially are a significant barrier to entry considering what's currently required to run them in terms of hardware. And while the price of the SNES version is certainly nothing to sneeze at, it's certainly more accessible with emulation (Wii version included) and flash carts.

Edited by the author 3 years ago

I want to split up the leaderboard if one version has significant glitch advantage but not because one platform runs faster or is more expensive. That isn't how it works for any other SNES game is it? But then, SNES is the fastest platform for all other SNES games.

I admit PSX has issues when it's the optimal platform: a ) There is no practical way to burn the ISO on a CD and play on real hardware. SNES flash carts are affordable. [Accessibility] b ) PS1 lag is too much to be competitive, inaccurate lag emulation aside, and PS2 emulators don't play PS1 games. PSTV official emulator is fast but runs games off hard drive so is usually banned. [Accessibility] c ) ISOs for X Y Z games are not easily available online. SNES + SFC has every ROM easily available in a single download. [Accessibility] d ) @Krayzar brings up the PS2 model hell. I have to buy a 3rd PS2 because I didn't realize Time Crisis 2 link mode only works on the early Fat models!! [Accessibility]

Cost here is not an issue. English PSX version is half the price of SNES version. Japanese SNES (SFC), PSX and Saturn versions are all cheaper and affordable. I assume most runners of expensive SNES games play off a flash cart. Has advantage of faster save and load times but not useful here.

If you two want to split up by platform because of accessibility and state in the game rules this is the main reason, I'll sign on.

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Accessibility is my main point of concern here. Considering Ogre Battle is a pretty niche game, the less barriers to entry, the better.

(Also, to my knowledge, PS1 games generally have the fastest loading if played on PSP. And unfortunately, not every model of PSP has AV output capabilities)

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There's a bunch that are faster on PSP or PSVita/PSTV, but for one reason or another, there are just as many that are slightly but significantly faster on a specific model of PS2. It's kinda frustrating. Don't actually know which is faster for Ogre Battle.

Considering Ogre Battle PSX was never officially released on PSP/PSN, though, we likely can't count that as an official platform. It's probably accurate enough for general emulation.

And don't get me started on the crazy iMode phone port which is supposed to be the only port of the PSX/Saturn version ever done! They just loved porting this to platforms that aren't terribly accessible now, for one reason or another.

Edited by the author 3 years ago

1st Model PSP has no AV out. I bought 2nd Model on eBay but was shipped 1st. Was easy to prove auction photos didn't match. Free PSP but I don't want it..

PSP emulator (PSTV) is supposed to be the fastest way to play PS1 games. Ogre Battle wasn't officially released for it so we'd have to treat PSTV as any other emulator. If it has a speed advantage over hardware then it's banned. If SNES9x1.54 ran Ogre Battle 10% faster than real SNES, it'd be banned too.

Reminds me that Ogre Battle is on WiiVC but WiiVC was shut down. I read it's possible to use homebrew software to still install VC games but that's beyond what most people are willing to do. Sad life to "buy" a game you don't own but here we are.

The iMode phone port! I tried finding more information about it. Has some kind of link mode I think? I know Prince of Zenobia on NGPC does.

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Installing VC stuff through homebrew is quite easy. Really hoping that the rumors are true and some VC content might eventually be seen on Switch though.

iMode used the link functions for downloading more maps supposedly. Not sure if that was just the Saturn extra maps or other custom ones.

United States

Well, this is surprising. PS1 Ogre Battle seems to have an entirely different system for the initial Tarot RNG. There may be less RNG in general. Your name and gender choice doesn't seem to affect the cards at all, and neither does skipping or not skipping initial Logo FMVs. The frame you leave the Title screen and the Frame you select your gender are the only variables.

Still testing, but damn, I wasn't expecting this. Tomorrow I'll map the Initial Card RNG if this holds up.

Oh, also, I did a few tests with a PlayStation ODE recently and one of the games was Ogre Battle. The ODE came in last for most of these due to the PS1s pitiful bus speeds, but it's interesting to see what the fastest possible speeds on PS1 are compared to the PS2 and Vita. In general this illustrates just how swingy what the best platform for PS1 games is in reality:

Edited by the author 2 years ago