The any% full run is actually interesting somewhat. Before grenades, you need to find ways of failing that are faster than doing the part of the mission you would skip. When you get grenades, it is still slow to blow up three times so there are still mission parts you need to do. When you get C4, not everything is skippable and there are still some mission parts that are faster to do compared to dying 3 times with C4. You also still need to decide where to get taxis to get to and from each mission. Basically, you do actually need to route things and you can optimize the run. While not a category everyone loves, it is worth keeping because there are actually different strats involved by comparison to the other categories.
None of these points exist for in the individual level runs. You start with C4. If people actually competed in the individual level categories it would simply be who can select and blow up c4 the fastest in 98% of the cases. No one even bothers to submit an actual run to the category, they just put a classic % run for it. I think this is beyond dispute that any% individual level categories should not exist. Do you agree?
What I am not sure on, is whether the any% NMS category is necessary for the individual level runs. I think the classic % individual levels should certainly stay but I am not sure if there is enough of a difference in the way the missions are done to make the differentiation between any% nms and classic % worth it. 95/100 times a taxi is used in a full run it is to go between missions. The category makes sense for full runs because you do end up doing some strats that are different from classic % but this is not really the case for individual levels. People generally just do a classic % run and submit it to all three categories.
What do you guys think? Remove any% individual levels? Remove both any% and any% nms individual levels? Just simply write the classic % rules for all individual levels? One of the reasons people don't run the individual levels could be because it looks like a mess with 3 duplicate times. What do you think?
Either that or here's another option. Familiarize yourself with which missions would be completely removed: http://www.speedrun.com/gtav/thread/1dzcx/1#1zsh0
Remove all of the missions without a time stat on the results screen. Same for the recently added strangers and freaks missions (someone will have to post which of these have a time stat). In the end, everything with a time stat can be added to that leaderboard, assuming something is currently missing. One category, Any%, and here's how this will work. Since using a mission skip and taking a cab prevents you from seeing your mission time, these wouldn't be options when doing ILs. The category will remain Any%, but if you do something which blocks the mission time, your time will not be considered. We'll no longer use RTA for timing. The results screen time stat will be what you post in your submission.
The benefits of this would be a very simply verification process. 100% accurate times on the leaderboard. Yes, some missions will be removed, but I think that's fine. The other GTA leaderboards only include levels with time stats, so this would be following that trend.
While it is a good idea, I would prefer that no missions be removed. Removing 30 whole missions seems a tad bit extreme when the only benefit is a different timing system.
It would also make things a tad confusing, given that Any% is associated with mission skips and taxis, but specifically for ILs any% would not have you be able to use either. It would be "Individual Levels using Classic % rules" but we would just call it "Any % Individual Levels". Simply removing the other categories maintains the category meaning consistency.
I think just removing both any% and any% NMS categories and writing the classic% rules would be better. It would be something else entirely if fewer missions would be effected but if we went down that route it would remove almost half of the missions, I think that is too many.
It could just say "In-game time" or "Mission Time (results screen)" instead of a category name. People will understand. Categories shouldn't even be a part of a level leaderboard. Usually level leaderboards organize by a difficulty, and since there's no such thing here, it should just be a column titled "(something having to do with in-game time)". The simplest way to explain what you are allowed to do/not do is to just state that if the results screen doesn't give you your time, it's an unacceptable attempt. This way we can avoid people complaining about their favorite category not being a part of the board. I really think we should keep this as simple as possible and only include the levels/missions that have a time stat. Many missions are missing from the other games' IL board simply because of a missing IGT stat. This board should be no exception.
I feel we might be somewhat over complicating things. What happens in other games or other GTAs does not matter for the purposes of this game. Uniformity is neither a necessarily nor perhaps even a desirable trait in this case.
What the board ultimately attempts to do is allow people to compare and race in individual missions. The reason why I do not like your proposal is that it effectively removes 30 tracks with effectively no gain. There is nothing necessarily better about the in-game timer bar that it makes verification easier. Given how few people submit anyway, you likely won't have many to verify. Additionally, you will have even less when you remove the other two categories :P If there is even a dispute over a time, it does not take much effort to check.
No one likes any% except me and I was the one who asked for it to be removed :P We can tell no one would complain about any% NMS removal because in the 3? years since this game has come out there has not been a single entry into that category that was not a classic % run up until I did it a few days ago.
When it comes right down to it, the person who is most likely going to run each of the ILs the most is me. No one else is probably going to give two shits either way.
If we want to be democratic, we should put it up for a vote but I would be very surprised that anyone who runs this game would care enough to vote bar me, Toriks and Havii.
The main reason I feel only these missions should be included isn't because of the other boards, that's just an additional point, but because RTA begins with an arbitrary starting point and end point. Yes, a large amount of missions are missing, but you're still left with a massive list. The board isn't meant to exist in an attempt to get people to practice every mission. Also, I don't think the establishment of this board should be based around a current day belief that it will never become popular.
I picture other IL boards and imagine if they hadn't used the results screen time for their timing from the get-go. I'm positive these would be much less popular today or possibly would have never gained enough attention to grow if the game didn't give an accurate time at the end of the attempt.
"RTA begins with an arbitrary starting point and end point" How so? It starts when the game starts the mission, it ends on the mission complete screen. Technically speaking, on the very first frame after the load it starts and on the very first frame of "mission complete" it ends. If there were ever two times that were extremely close, we would simply look more closely at the videos to determine a winner. This has only happened once in the entire history of this board I think. The missions have a clear start and a clear end with or without a time on the screen. The timing start and end that we use is the exact same one the game uses but on every mission instead of those arbitrarily chosen by the designers.
It is not about practicing every mission it is about the contest on the individual missions. Let me put your point in another context. Let us say we have a racing game with 70 tracks. You are a developer. You say to your player base "I am going to remove 30 tracks because I don't like the way they are timed, but don't worry, you still have 40 tracks to play on". Doesn't that sound...odd...to you? I think there would be more questions of "Why can't I submit times for 30 of the missions?" than there would be questions about anything else.
Let us run over where we disagree. I value function or uniformity, thus I don't care about other boards. I don't think the timing is arbitrary, and I wouldn't necessarily care even if it was because that it is irrelevant if it is upheld by consensus. I know nothing of the other GTAs but are you sure that the change in timing was ...actually significant ... in the popularity growth of the boards? I am having a hard time believing people went "Wait...I don't need to split twice! Sign me up!".
What it comes down to for me is "Does it make sense that we should not have records for 'Franklin and Lamar', but we should have them for 'Masks'?". The first mission is quite skill based and interesting. The second takes two-three seconds to complete. Your argument is that Masks is deserving because the developers arbitrarily decided to stick a timer there for an achievement. I don't think the developers arbitrary determination of achievements should determine what missions we keep records for.
I'm referring to IL boards like http://rankings.the-elite.net/goldeneye http://rankings.the-elite.net/perfect-dark http://www.mariokart64.com/mk64/wrc.cgi which have been around since pre-2000 (Perfect dark in 2000). None of these would have ever become popular if there wasn't an in-game time to submit. The GTA IL boards will almost certainly never reach the popularity that these boards have seen, mainly because these boards didn't exist at the height of these games' popularity.
What you've described in your post is exactly what Rockstar chose to do. Why did they decide 30+ missions shouldn't include a time stat? I have no idea. It's absolutely awful design, but it's what they chose.
An RTA time will be close to the accurate time, but never will be 100% accurate, and that alone should be enough to validate having only the missions with a time stat on the board. I can't think of any other popular IL boards that use RTA timing. People are attracted to 100% accurate timing for very short speedruns/ILs.
IL boards are synonymous with using an in-game timer (usually an end of mission screen). Continuing to use RTA will just set this board down the wrong path.
Well, yeah, that's what will happen if we can't agree. Though, in my opinion, it makes the board look extremely sloppy and unorganized.
Kyle forgive the length of my post, I cut it down significantly but I had to leave in what I am responding to. "I'm referring to IL boards like http://rankings.the-elite.net/goldeneye http://rankings.the-elite.net/perfect-dark http://www.mariokart64.com/mk64/wrc.cgi which have been around since pre-2000 (Perfect dark in 2000). None of these would have ever become popular if there wasn't an in-game time to submit. The GTA IL boards will almost certainly never reach the popularity that these boards have seen, mainly because these boards didn't exist at the height of these games' popularity."
You are ignoring so much of gaming/tech history when you make this statement Kyle. It had nothing to do with the timing system or the date of board creation. Let us compare 2000ish and 2016 2000: No ubiquitous broadband internet. Effectively no capture cards. No ubiquitous RTA system nor a way to upload it with video. Few games in existence. Even fewer good games in existence. Even less access to games as gaming audience was younger and thus had less money.
2016: We have access to tens of thousands of games at our fingertips. We have cheap effectively capture cards that can stream gameplay to everyone on the planet. We have a RTA system that is so easy to use a child could use it, and they do. I can upload, in real time, my gameplay with ease. We have archives of every amazing game that has ever been developed over the past few decades and I can play them whenever I want to. The gaming audience today has a fucktonne of money.
Why do these differences matter? In the year 2000 when you finished a game, that was it unless you invented a way to entertain yourself within the game. You didn't have other games. THIS is why individual level boards were developed for these games, it was a different time. You had to make your own fun.
Compare this to today. When most people finish a game, people just move onto the next thing. For those who are still interested in the game after completion, and want to play more in the game, they don't need to make their own fun. They don't need to run the missions over and over. They go play the Online game. I can assure you that if there existed a million easily accessed games when golden eye 007 came out, including an online golden eye 007 world, that leaderboard would be as empty as our own. If there were people who WANTED to run GTA V ILs, they would have made the board earlier. There was nothing stopping anyone from doing so. The boards late creation SHOWS the lack of interest and articulates how much gaming has changed. Even that 007 board is likely dead or at least much much less accessed compared to before.
"What you've described in your post is exactly what Rockstar chose to do. Why did they decide 30+ missions shouldn't include a time stat? I have no idea. It's absolutely awful design, but it's what they chose. " Rockstar had no interest in speed runners or recording mission times. They were developing an online world with 10000 recorded timed levels. They were not thinking about people competing in offline missions. They were making achievements to tick the box. All games need achievements -.- You are arguing that rockstar's arbitrary achievement system, made with no consideration for us or recording mission times, should constrain us. I consider this madness. You are arguing that of the countless games in existence, NONE should have individual level times unless the developer put a timer in it. I can't even begin to understand such thinking.
"An RTA time will be close to the accurate time, but never will be 100% accurate, and that alone should be enough to validate having only the missions with a time stat on the board. " Why did they use the in-game timer in 2000? They couldn't upload videos of their runs and RTA timers only work if you have a video of your run. The RTA timers are not even necessary for us anymore. In the year 2000, they needed an easy verification that could not be tampered with. The in-game time provided that. It was accurate only to the second but they had no other option. Us? We don't need a timer. I can take any one of my runs, look at the first frame and tell you within a hundredth of a second how long it took me to complete the run. That is the magic of recording video. We use the timer because it gives us information while we are doing the run. We can do the math from first frame to last frame for accuracy within a frame. You are asking us to use an in-game timer that is limited to seconds...that is less accurate. The RTA timer ultimately is just used because we are too lazy to look at the frames in the dam video.
"I can't think of any other popular IL boards that use RTA timing" That is because the popular individual level runs were made at a time when that was effectively all that was available. You are doing it again, arguing that we should do whatever everyone else does because that is what they do. If we could go back and give them what we have now to record our runs they would certainly use it over what they used.
"People are attracted to 100% accurate timing for very short speedruns/ILs. " Excellent. It is a good thing we don't allow anyone to submit a time without a video, so we have a semi-permanent copy of their time within a frame. We have that, with or without the ingame timer. I would also ask how you came to this conclusion of what people are attracted to, largely because you are asking for a LESS accurate timer not a more accurate one.
"IL boards are synonymous with using an in-game timer (usually an end of mission screen)." See reasons stated above.
"Continuing to use RTA will just set this board down the wrong path" I don't even understand what this statement means. If you look at those other IL leaderboards, next to no one is submitting. Please, just get rid of the any % and the any% NMS categories in the individual level section and allow those of us who run this game to get back to doing so. ¤redacted¤
I have been up for 20 hours. I am tired. I am going to bed. Good night.
These other boards never switched over to RTA timing for a reason, and it wasn't to keep a tradition going. IGT is the best possible timing for competition, and there's no changing my opinion on that. Unless you're importing your video into video editing software and timing from the first to last frame, your RTA time is almost always going to be inaccurate. Are you seriously thinking you'll get an accurate time from eyeing it? You might think it's 1:11.950 when it's actually 1:12.050. This is why I've always removed the milliseconds people include in there submissions and rounded down when they used RTA. This is likely what the game does as well, though it might round up after a decimal of .95 or .97 like it does in Goldeneye and Perfect Dark.
I never said Rockstar should have focused on speedrunners when making their game, that's just how you interpreted it. I just find it extremely bizarre that they refused to include a historically common video game statistic on 30+ missions while including it on 45+ others.
I'm starting to feel you have a problem with the opinion creation process. Am I not able to examine how other similar operations work and come to the conclusion that they're doing it in the best possible way?
There's no changing my views on this and clearly you're not going to budge either, so obviously the following must happen: ¤Keep the three categories (Any%, Any% NMS, Classic) ¤Add a category for the missions with a mission time stat (Classic IGT) ¤If you do a Classic attempt on any of the missions with a mission time stat, you must submit the results screen time to the new category (Classic IGT) and are not allowed to submit this same time to "Classic" NOR are you allowed to submit an RTA time to "Classic" for any of these missions NOR are you allowed to submit the IGT to Any%, Any% NMS (the reason for this is because a submission with a "without loads" time is given higher priority over submissions without and this can result in a worse RTA time showing up as the best time) ((this is an issue with the website))
Actually, these additions don't need to happen if no one wants them (I'm not going to do ILs).
If someone wants Any% and/or NMS to stay because they like doing them, then I would say we should keep them, but at least start doing proper strats for these categories so they're not just filled with Classic% attempts.
" Unless you're importing your video into video editing software and timing from the first to last frame, your RTA time is almost always going to be inaccurate" Kyle. I am beginning to question your sanity. The video is an absolute perfect recording of the exact time the run took. Exactly 100%. You have argued "People love accurate times" and in response to this I noted that no one can be fucked to take the 5 minutes it takes to get the PERFECT time for their run. This demonstrates, beyond doubt that no one cares about a perfectly accurate time UNLESS it is actually relevant. Whether I got a 7:45.5 or a 7:44.9 ONLY matter if someone else got the same time. This is literally the only time this matters. If one particularly eccentric individual cares about the exact time, they can always examine the video. The in-game timer gives us literally nothing. Literally nothing!
The bottom line Kyle, you do not run this game. You have never run this game. Yet you seem to believe from this fountain of lack of care or involvement in this game you can determine what is best for it. Mate, it is very easy to be willing to gouge a game of its content WHEN YOU DON'T RUN IT! I assure you that if you ran the game you would have a different opinion in regards to gouging content because you want to use a different god dam timing system because you think it is pretty.
"Am I not able to examine how other similar operations work and come to the conclusion that they're doing it in the best possible way? " You have not made an argument that it is the best possible way. You keep saying "Well it is better...because it is better". I point out to you that the timer is by definition less accurate and your response is...but....its is more competitive. You are removing half the competitive tracks AND ARGUING IT IS MORE GOD DAM COMPETITIVE (Some of those missions are arguably the best in the game). That is absolutely insane. The ILs in this game are not run, and likely never will be run to a great extent, for the reasons I described. You have provided no evidence that In-Game timers make this more competitive, or inspire people to run. The only point you put forward was making a fallacious argument confusing correlation with causation, when clearly the reason those games were run had nothing to do with the dam timing system.
" IGT is the best possible timing for competition" Defend this point. Defend it. WHY is it more competitive? Is it the most accurate? No. Does it provide the most missions to race in? No. Do people care about absolute accuracy? People's lack of desire to determine their most accurate time determines that they do not. Is there any evidence more people would run with this timing system? No. Has there been anyone who runs this game ASKING for this timing system? No.
If you look down our discussion Kyle you have been pulling at straws to defend what is ultimately an absolutely insane point of view. I have shown every time you have found some contrived reason to use this timer why what you are saying is wrong. YOU Kyle, just you, like a particular timing system for what appears to be entirely nostalgic reasons. That you think you have other reasons is immaterial to me. This is not a good reason to gouge the game of content.
"Am I not able to examine how other similar operations work and come to the conclusion that they're doing it in the best possible way?" You are looking at what they are doing and arguing that because they are doing it, we should do it. This has been your entire argument from the get go but you keep attempting to change the wording and prop up this point with other fallacious arguments.
All your options you put forward are predicated on something I do not agree with Kyle. I do not agree you should have any input or that you should be the deciding factor in what categories exist. You do not run this game. There is no one who runs this game calling for In-Game timing. Just you. You alone. A non-runner. I do not believe I should decide what happens, I believe the present runners of this game should. I asked for the mods to be involved because they are the only one's who can make the changes. I did not ask because I believe you have some special wisdom related to GTA V.
So ultimately I want you to answer two questions: Why is IGT more competitive? Be very careful to actually DEFINE competitive in your answer. Additionally, why should non-runners dedicate how the games they do not run are timed?
I would say give it the same treatment as gay tony ILs
Go by ingame time and have the categories any% and 100%. Those % numbers mean the completion % at the end of the screen. Obviously runs with 100% stat can be submitted to the any% LB.
And it doesn't matter if you use taxis, skip mission parts or whatever. Of course if using taxis reduces your % counter the run can only go into any%.
That would make runs very easy to verify + it would add some variaty to missions if you want to get 100%. 100% masks anyone?
The fact of the matter is, most boards use IGT and I've come to the conclusion that this is the best way to do it. Claiming this is an insane view is insanity in itself. Are you expecting every submission from this point until the end of time to be downloaded and verified to the thousandth decimal place via video editing software OR, do you want a board filled with times that are off by so many hundredth from the actual RTA time simply because the consensus is we will allow the submitter to decide what time they achieved based upon their reaction times? Both of these are horrible for the future of this board when there's an IN-GAME TIMER just sitting there for 40+ missions and many more races, activity missions, etc..
Why the hatred for the IGT when every last attempt from however many people go for IL times is UNIFORMLY rounded up or down depending on the decimal the game is tracking behind the scenes? The key word is UNIFORMLY if you fail to realize. IL boards are not meant to be anything more than a place for competition. It's not about showcasing, it's not about creating tutorials, and it certainly isn't about going further than even the game goes to figure out your RTA time down to the thousandth decimal place.
The Goldeneye IL board is the most competitive board I have ever seen and it's been going strong since pre-2000, with a major surge when live streaming/Twitch came around. I've been following this board for a few years now and I've seen how intense the competition is there. This is a game where most of the IL WRs are under A MINUTE, as of current day. Every last one has at least 300-600 unique players with at least one submitted time. So, surely they've switched to RTA with such a competitive board and a measly in-game timer to judge all? Hell no, and they never will, because the IGT is the "God" that judges all uniformly. No one has to question the legitimacy of times on that board (in extremely rare situations they do). No one has to wonder how many decimals they're off by due to reaction times and proceed to check via other software. None of this goes on. Instead, they grind out attempts, hoping to see a 1-how ever many second time save on the results screen, and then they take this video and it's respective time and submit it to the board. This is how you create serious competition, just as it's been done of many other IL boards spread around the internet.
Clearly your biggest issue is the removal of the 30 missions. As I made clear on my third to last post, this shouldn't happen if someone feels strongly against it, and someone does, so it won't happen. My recommendation is to have a board with only the missions that have an IGT, use the IGT for submissions, and be left with a board with one column. With that said, I'll resign from being a moderator.
Jolzi, if you use a mission fail skip, taxi, or cheat code during the attempt, the results screen doesn't display your time.
"I've come to the conclusion that this is the best way to do it" Kyle. Best is a relational term in that what it means is ultimately dependent on what it relates to. If I said "X is best" I have told you nothing about X other than that it is meeting some particular criteria that I have not explained. You have stated "most boards IGT" as effectively the entire reason why it should be used. You have than noted things about these boards and fallaciously attributed ANY positive attribute of then to the timing system.Effectively, your argument has always been that what is best is what everyone else is doing. This is simply not a good reason to do anything and we can be pretty confident that the 007 boards would not have used IGT if they would have lost half the missions (and they had some other valid timing choice). Just because something is used in one context, does not mean it should be used in an entirely different context. GTA V is not 007.
"Are you expecting every submission from this point until the end of time to be downloaded and verified to the thousandth decimal place via video editing software" I already covered this. ONLY in the event there is a dispute on the time. If there is no dispute, then whether a person got a 7:31.5 or a 7:32.0 literally does not matter. Using splits is only inaccurate generally within a second, it is literally irrelevant unless the times are so close that they need to be differentiated. Meaning, the split time you get is fine. We are not likely to get many submissions any way (while this may be planning for failure, it is simply realistic)
"Why the hatred for the IGT" Because it is only accurate within to a second, could not be used in other categories if we ever decided to make them or keep them in the future and that it removes half the missions OR leaves us in a situation where half the missions are timed in one way and the other half are timed in another way. The timing system does not provide us any objective benefit other than...
"UNIFORMLY" ....which is completely unnecessary and has no actual value.
"IL boards are not meant to be anything more than a place for competition. It's not about showcasing, it's not about creating tutorials, and it certainly isn't about going further than even the game goes to figure out your RTA time down to the thousandth decimal place. " Says who Kyle? Says fucking who? Did you find a divine book of Holy Speed running scripture? No. But more importantly, who is making the argument that these should be used for anything other than competition and what on earth does that have to do with ANYTHING!
"The Goldeneye IL board is the most competitive board I have ever seen and it's been going strong since pre-2000, with a major surge when live streaming/Twitch came around" BECAUSE OF BOTH THE GAME AND THE TIME IT DEVELOPED! It has NOTHING to do with the timing system as I went to amazing pains to explain.
"I've been following this board for a few years now and I've seen how intense the competition is there." As I have explained from the beginning. Your argument is "I want this to be like the other games that I have nostalgia for". Get your traditionalist mentality out of this conversation and argue from benefits and utility. You put forward the idea of uniformity. I have put forward that its cost far outweighs its benefits as detailed above.
You are continually creating a fallacious argument equating correlation with causation to argue that the competition is caused by the IGT. Can we all please acknowledge that all the actual speed runs, the most competitive, DON'T use an IGT? Yet are still fricking competitive? For the last time, the reason 007 is competitive is not the dam timing system. It is because of both the game and when it was developed. Both variables related to the game and it context, none of which exist for GTA V. This game is not 007, and for all the reasons I mentioned previously, will never become it.
"Clearly your biggest issue is the removal of the 30 missions. As I made clear on my third to last post, this shouldn't happen if someone feels strongly against it, and someone does, so it won't happen. " Which was detailed at the very very beginning of this conversation, yet we are still talking about it. "I want this game that I don't run to be like 007", over and over and over.
"My recommendation" Is literally worth nothing until you take an active interest in running the game because the basis for your recommendation is both fallacy and nostalgia.
