So let's make this clear once and for all. If zam's time is legit, then should we allow using those kind of scripts to start a sub6 meg on 7 char runs?
You're gonna say it doesn't affect the run, well, neither does resetting for blank card emperor knife on meg using the script since technically you can do it "the normal way", right?
For me, that's a TAS. Just creating this post so we can discuss it and make the rules clear on that aspect (Rules have to be clear on way more aspects. If we leave them as they are right now, cheating item pools is not banned)
So it's time to discuss it and let the community decide.
Let the games begin.
Edit: Just want to leave this clear: I'm just opening a discuss. I don't want to start an arguing where we end up hating each other. Over all this, we love speedrunning/racing TBOI and we are part of the same community, and we all want it to be kind and friendly. So please don't take this post the bad way. If this is gonna became a civil war i'm not on it.
This is a TAS, the game is modded, scripts and speedhacks are being used, all to gain an unfair advantage over playing the game normally. Resets and time invested are part of running roguelikes, you don't get to cheat that and claim it's okay because the actual run was not affected. It does not matter that "no one" cares about 1 character anyway, it does not matter that the run itself was executed without tools and cheats when getting the run used both.
I deleted some posts that were offensive/irrelevant
I'd agree that the run should be considered a TAS.
The game was modded and a script was used. It may not have been used on the "timed portion" of the run but it was still used and the game was altered by an outside tool. Guess you could think of it as a sort of "setup" or "preparation" for the run which in this case shouldn't be considered entirely separate from the run itself.
If this type of run were considered valid then I think it'd trivialize every other run we've done up to now. If you're allowed to use the script on a single run then what's the difference between using it on every character in a multi-character run? And then the runs would just be dumbed down to whoever gets all the 6 minute OP start runs in a row, right? (slightly oversimplified)
It's a drastic change in the way the game is played/the runs are done by using external tools. So that seems, to me, to clearly be a TAS.
My opinion is that all Zam's tool does is prevent him from wasting time holding R (or menu restart). I think the WR should stand.
I do agree that it's a TAS. I think he should publish the tool to allow level playing field.
[quote=karolmo]I don't want to start an arguing where we end up hating each other. Over all this, we love speedrunning/racing TBOI and we are part of the same community, and we all want it to be kind and friendly.[/quote]
Well said!
Here's my opinion. Currently, the consensus is that my WR in Rebirth is legitimate. Essentially: "In the Rebirth WR, Zamiel used a tool to decrease the Eden resetting time from 11 seconds to 3 seconds. That's OK."
But now, by posting this thread, Karol is implicitly saying: "In the Afterbirth WR, Zamiel used a tool to decrease the Eden resetting time from 11 seconds to 0.3 seconds. That's not OK!"
See how this seems weird? I don't think you can you coherently make a distinction between these two things. Either you allow decreasing the reset time or you don't. The Rebirth WR currently stands, so this one should stand too.
Why? Well, all the old arguments in the old thread still apply. We probably don't need to rehash all the same arguments over and over again - if you want to discuss it, read through the old thread(s) if you haven't already done so!
In short,
- Does it actually make sense to outlaw something that isn't part of the run / only applies BEFORE the timer for the run is started?
- Does holding R really constitute any form of skill?
Again, the consensus was that reducing the reset time on Eden IS allowed.
[quote=Lobsterosity]I think he should publish the tool to allow level playing field.[/quote]
Sure! Here it is: https://pastebin.com/UpUQgctS (It's a Cheat Engine table, which should be familiar to all the speedrunners who have ever done practice runs, or done any testing of game mechanics.)
[quote=karolmo]should we allow using those kind of scripts to start a sub6 meg on 7 char runs? [/quote]
I think you might misunderstand how the script works, as what you said doesn't make much sense. The script simply checks to see if you have Blood Rights and Isaac's Heart in your inventory (essentially the same thing that the Hyphen-ated Item Tracker does). Maggy always starts with the same items (Yum Heart). In order to get a Sub6 Maggy run, you have to actually play the game by checking Treasure Rooms, Devil Deals, and so forth.
Of course, you COULD use it to "farm" a good Eden start for a 11 or 13 character WR attempt. But think about that for a second. Is it really worth spending 1 (or more) hours per run attempt? That seems really unnecessary. I don't think it even gets you enough of an advantage to be worth it, since the 11 character and 13 character categories are so long. Also, don't people typically want to play the hardest characters first, like Keeper?
[quote=karolmo](Rules have to be clear on way more aspects. If we leave them as they are right now, cheating item pools is not banned)[/quote]
That's not true at all! Modifying the item pool is done via a custom "itempools.xml" file. This has been, and continues to be illegal for speedruns. (It is also easily verifiable, since you can re-play their seeds with a vanilla game.) For the run that I submitted for the WR, I played on a vanilla copy of the game without any external mods.
I think this shouldn't be allowed and I was always against it even in rebirth when I saw it but I just never cared too much about 1 char category but I agree that this is basicly like using TAS.
Zamiell mentioned that this is "not worth" starting on Eden with 11 / 13 characters which i disagree, starting 6-7 min Eden is worth if its so easy to get, it doesnt have to be blood rights isaac's heart since there are many other combos that can get you sub 8 minutes runs which isnt very likely to find all the time and requires a lot of resets / time.
For me the main issue with this whole WR is using the speedhack to reset so fast by using cheatengine, is there any difference between using cheat engine to speedhack this way or to read floor layout (if we knew the memory location of it) besides the reason "it won't affect the run". This is still the same thing imo.
I think we should ban using cheat engine in any way just like we don't allow using missing hud 2 for speedruns.
[quote=Cyber_1]is there any difference between using cheat engine to speedhack this way or to read floor layout[/quote]
Well, yes. The difference is that, in my 1 character run, Cheat Engine turns off before the runs even begins. If you were using Cheat Engine to read floor layouts, you would be using it DURING your run, which is a big difference!
(Side note - reading floor layouts like this isn't even possible with the current cheat tables.)
i already said my opinion about this thing after SAME rebirth wr 1 char. i see too ways First one: zamiel open up software for auto resetting explain how it works etc. And all people can do same. Second one: this is not allowed if people using proprams by self only.
Dea1h I already posted it in above post but I think you missed it. You can see it here: https://pastebin.com/UpUQgctS You just use "Search Game Structure", then start holding R, and that's it. It will stop on BR+IH. Easy!
We can have different rules for different categories.
I think using the speedhack is pushing it a little to what is acceptable.
The true mystery about 1 char is why it's the first category, and not 7 char. (Other than 1 comes before 7)
zam is using a tool to reset faster, therefore its a tool assisted run (not a WR). If I cannot open the game myself and reset the same as zam without any external help its a no brainer. I don't see the argument here. If the argument is about the rebirth WR zam got and saying their is a consensus that it was ok to mildly speed up reset times, you would probably be wrong bc not many people read / look at these forums. I am against it if this is a new vote.
Why don't you just make a seperrate category for runs like Zam's then? That coild avoid any further drama in here
This should be an invalid run for the category Zamiell submitted to. At most the only thing that should be allowed would be holding R, to bypass the block on Eden due to requiring tokens, when doing a single char run. Since the a lot of people already use the hacked file I created for Afterbirth, the reasoning behind the block becomes moot (my assumption). However changing other factors in the game, like reset speed, and automating the stopping of a script/tool takes this too far. For instance while racing, we do not allow a tool that lets us stop holding R when a pedestal item shows up in a room we might want, and then reset/roll it by accident. This could easily be avoided with something someone writes. My reasoning for only allowing it on 1char is that all legacy multi-char do not have this and in that case it would be unfair to allow it on those no matter what. If you're only goal is to grind out a 1char WR you'll be sitting around for hours waiting for a good combo which sounds horrific to me and why Zamiell did this in the first place, because it's boring and terrible.
My vote is to ONLY allow the original intention of what I gave out to be allowed for 1char Eden, and anything added on to automate/facilitate the run invalidates it. That is, removing the block on Eden's holding R.
Since a lot of people already use the hacked file I created for Afterbirth
This seems wrong. I checked all the submitted Eden 1char runs and found none using it, and I checked most of the runs of any kind submitted less than a month ago and found none using it.
Looks like there's a big enough consensus that Zam's thing shouldn't be allowed. What's the best way to phrase a rule against it? Maybe the cleanest way is just "You can't use any external modifications to the game other than changing config files"
While we're at it, let's clarify things about missinghud and layout peeking: "You can't use a tool to read the game's memory and reveal otherwise-hidden information, e.g. player stats or floor layouts." Relevant tools that this rule wouldn't ban are the item tracker and autosplitter, both of which don't reveal any hidden information.
The hacked file being the 1001% file. Not resetting on Eden. No one except Zam has used it I believe. Possibly Dea1h.
Since it seems like most don't like the speed hack prep, I'll take down the run. That's completely fine - it was just a side project for fun, and I value everyone else's opinion.
I'm surprised that there is not a rule banning MissingHUD already.
