New Rule for Tall Tales
3 years ago
England

Hi all, a run was submitted recently that used the new checkpoint system to finish TT9 in under 2 minutes by activating the final checkpoint whilst parked at the shores of gold. As clever as I thought this was obviously I couldn't allow it. Luckily in this case it did break a rule "All runners must be in range of the STARTING island" (They were all aboard the ship but it was at the shores of gold, not Morrow's Peak) so I was able to reject it fairly. I've now added to the rules that checkpoints can't be used when running Tall Tales (I'm sure you understand that other games wouldn't count a speedrun that starts from the final checkpoint). That's my bad for not adding the rule when the update dropped.

Anemion likes this
France

I absolutely agree with this. The intent with speedrunning Tall Tales is to complete it in its entirety from the starting point to the end just like a casual crew (who doesn't know what the Tale is) would do, except we happen to go faster. Meaning it's ok to skip things in between the start and finish but you can't start from the middle.

As such I would also suggest adding in the rule that any quest item (necessary or not) in a Tale cannot be collected (or used) prior starting your run. For instance, you shouldn't be allowed to collect the Gold Hoarder Coin before starting the TT9 and use it in your Speedrun.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Toastiewaffles likes this
Champagne-Ardenne, France

"As such, I also suggest adding in the rule that any quest item (necessary or not) in a story cannot be collected (or used) before starting your run. For example, you should not be authorized to collect the Hoarder gold coin before starting the TT9 and using it in your Speedrun. "

Are you only talking about tale objects? (we would always have the right to use barrels, ammunition boxes, etc.)

France

Yes, Tall Tales related items like vault keys, totems, shroudbreaker stones, etc... Not collector chest or any other additional supplies.

Basically just a bit more foolproofing so people can't just start a Tale, hand in the final item to the quest giver and call it a day.

France

I don't know if it's the coin Lyran was talking about, but for the Tale 9 because some people are asking me why we do not do the medallions before launching the tale to skip the kraken, boat, warrior and shark challenge. For me it was obvious that you have to do all the quest (except for the glitch category that skip parts of the quest), as at it concern me i'll find it not beautifull to watch juste someone running and not completing any thing on the run, because it was done before.

And what about using the checkpoints DURING the quest? I've done the scheme for all the quest, you always won time just by abondon the quest when you got the check point and reload the checkpoint. But the esthetic of the run is just people cannon them self on island, doing stuff and using mermaid to come back, you never plan to take the item back to the ship For the TT 8, it'll be that the ship is not stoping on cannon cove, someone shoot himself, kill the captain, dig the skull take it, meanwhile the ship is rushing to sunken, at sunken someone shoot himself to the island, kill and dig meanwhile the boat never stop and goes to the final island, at the moment the chalice is taken the checkpoint is reached, you cancel the quest, you reload the checkpoint the two items magically pop ont the boat, 2 people disconnect, the one's who's left launch the boss, the 2 others came, 1 is going to help to kill the boss meanwhile someone take the boat to dagger, the boss is killed, the shroud is grabbed, checkpoint, cancel quest and relaunch the shroud piece is magicaly already at the boat at dagger, the end.

For all the quest you can win lot of time but it massively change the view and the esthetic of the tales run. Should it be forbiden or should it be an other categorie? Personally, i'm more the coxswain on the boat it'll make my run way to easier, this point of view is not good to look, i'll never have to set a foot on ground. But it'll be faster.

I think we reached a new decisive point on the speedrun of sea of thieves, will we choose the visual of the runs or the speeds, or both by spliting categories.

It's to us to discuss about it, we (the community) choose the way it'll be, to the look, to impress and to make sparkling star in the eyes of the watchers, but mostly to what we want to do. If it to make a categorie that no one will run, what the point, if it's to make-it unwatchable or boring, same thing.

What do you thinks?

Toastiewaffles likes this
England

The way I see it, using checkpoints at all would be like using a new game+. I don't really want to add another category for tall tales that involves checkpoints, because we already have the 100% category that nobody really runs. Personally, I would allow most skips, and I allow preparation due to the nature of the game (For example I'm fine with you covering the gold hoarders throne with gunpowder kegs before you start the tale) but using checkpoints is like quitting the game and then loading a save thats further in.

France

I have a completely opposite point of view actually.

TL;DR: Setups : No*(Collection: Yes°/ Placement : No) Checkpoints : Yes (°Some may have to be excluded due to rarity)

To me, putting down kegs in the boss arena before the run even starts, is more like a NG+ type of strat because (in the eyes of a viewer) this is not something that should be happening in this situation. There was no piles of kegs near the boss when you first did that quest casually. You had to fight it "fairly" if that makes sense. The only reason there are kegs near the boss is because that crew spent a few hours collecting and placing down kegs just to save an extra 30 seconds off. As a viewer I would feel slightly cheated... As an speedrunner I would feel very discouraged cause this means that every crew now have to setup those kegs before every run. Take the example of TT9: When we did our runs, we had to first server hop until we spawned on an outpost close to Morrow's Peak and a good wind, then do a riddle quest for a collector's chest then get the ship in position. But it's not over yet because you can't leave the outpost until you have the -perfect- wind or you won't have enough time once you reach Tribute Peak. Doing the initial journey to Morrow's can take up to 25 minutes but waiting for the wind can take up to an hour ! And we did this by afk'ing at the outpost, each of us on a different server to maximize our chances. And we had to redo this Before. Every. Single. Try. So for me it's a no. Not any more of these annoying setups. Get kegs if you want but they stay on your ship until the run starts.

For checkpoints however I would be in favor of allowing them during a Tale (not starting from checkpoints). Just like the disconnection before a boss is now commonly used, all the abuses from Tall Tales checkpoints are a thing that's going to stay in the game. So I think we should go along with it. TT Checkpoints are only an item transportation tech (unless they also reroll the quest locations). They give you back an item you earned with your actions, so you are not reloading a save that's ahead, you are reloading the same save but in a different place.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Toastiewaffles likes this
England

Those are good points about the checkpoints, we'd need to establish a firm rule about how checkpoints can be used though. For example I've not used the checkpoint system yet, can you have multiple checkpoints saved for a single tall tale? Because if I make the rule 'cannot start the tall tale using a checkpoint' we dont then want people skipping checkpoints. As for the preparation, I know thats not how the 'story' is really meant to play out, but in speedruns the story is often completely ignored for whats fast, I also allow kegs for FOTD. Also, to my knowledge only TT9 has a guaranteed boss spawn location and only TT9 has a single place to sail, causing the wind direction to be so important. That tale has become a very optimised run, and when runs get optimised to that degree its usually the case that getting the top spot requires you to go through that much effort.

But yeah, if we can agree on a rule for how checkpoints can be used I'll allow them

France

We made precise rules for the position of the ship and crew at the beginning of a Tall Tale to provide an equal start between runners. I think not altering the world, especially the islands you are supposed to go, also goes toward this.

Besides, oneshotting the gold Hoarder with kegs sounds more like a really good challenge run more than a speedrun.

Champagne-Ardenne, France

2 little thing: -The 4 medallions of TT9 are considered as loots and not as TT9 objects so technically we could do them before (and have them on the boat).@Anemion rappelle toi du marathonfinement de la règle des médaillions^^

  • the fight against the boss of the TT9 comes under the joke since we discovered that his life depended on the number of people connected at the moment of the proc. (12-13 blows of blunderbuttons).

the blows of the barrels avoid reconnection and therefore the loading time different depending on the people (we never talked about it but the deconection-reconection depends on your pc and your connection so we are not equal on the run). the concern is that it takes 5-6 barrels for the insta-kill. or to enter the 5 barrels in the room you have to go through the texture (too long to pass apart the normal path). the question is to know if the barrels are authorized for the glichless run and under what condition?

France

I remember the medalion drama for marathonfinement. Someone asked if it was technicaly allowed under Zerator's ruleset and it ended up being allowed and made a lot of people very salty (but hasn't been used? I didn't see if the winner did it or not).

But Zerator's ruling only stands for his challenge, I don't think his saying should have any value for deciding if medalions are indeed quest items or if they can be collected in advance. It's up to the mods here to decide and in general what the other SoT speedrunners have to say about it.

As for the barrels, if setting up kegs requires using glitches it would be unwise to qualify your run as glitchless.

France

The discussion goes to talk about the barrels, for my part i don't like it. We are currently working on a run to crush the TT9 that use barrels and i think it sucks, even if it's way shorter. And to take the speach of Anemion that say that this is exhausting to wait the wind on Morrow for the TT9 ... Well, we usually wait it for like 30 min , as a comparison, the tale 8 give us 3 days of 8 hours of waiting to have the good wind at the beginning, the good pop for grey marrow afetr 20 min of run, the good wind for the return, and we waited like multiple time 4 hours or more on Plundervalley for the Art of the Trickster. This is the shittiest part of running SoT. Placing the barrels won't affect the time you wait the wind or the RNG, but the time you prepare the run, even if i think it's not a good idea. And to use arguments that are sometimes used on Sot "It's part of the game", it's Part Of The Game (POTG) to wait the wind, is POTG to see the kraken destroy your incredibly run (salt here), it's POTG tohave multiple barrels on your boat or in the boss room and it's POTG to dupe the medaillons, or to preshot them. Yup, but it's here what we decide what it's part of the speedrun. To came back to my point, placing the barrels is not for the TT9 is not as exhausting as it sound, but it's not visually relevant. For me a quest should be free as much as possible from any preparation, and by this it would mean no keg already on the throne or already on the island. It's more relevant to see the player managing the barrels during the run. Like, for the Tale 10, we used barrels, but the barrels were on the boat and we manage them during the run, placing them was part of the run. We had to retry some times because of a volcano that blew up our ship. But visually the effort worth it (and mostly because Kero lost himself on the sea during the run and almost give up, it make the run more funnier to watch, and stressfull). It's up to us, do we want to see the boss blew up, cause the fight is not a relevant boss fight (like, you know, not dodgeable aoe, rng spawn, hit reg that make your hit doesn't decrease the boss life or the infernal Aoe, shot, Aoe combo that the boss is stuck in and will repeat until you defeat it) or do we want to se a struggle in this rng boss fight but fair and may be it's a run killer but it's procure more sensation (Like killing a colossus in Shadow of the colossus) and visually it's good to see.

For the checkpoints normaly at this moment, when you do a quest you already have a checkpoint in, and passing a checkpoint in it erase the checkpoint for ne new one IF the new one is more advanced in the quest. I'll have to reverify this, and it's an unconsistent thing cause the lastupdates changes those things whitout any warns , at the beginning you could have multiple checkpoint, you could dupe them only by relauching a checkpoint with a new player on the crew and do it again. If using a check point only teleport the items to your ship, should it be alowed? If later (it's suposition to prevent future questions) there is a way to mix up checkpoint, like launching the TT9 with a clear account with no checkpoint in, abandon it, doing some actions and relauching it will make a checkpoint to the end or a boss warp, should it be authorized? At this moment we are few to run, it's not like pokemon where you have save corruptions category with some players on it, 100% with other on it, rush to league without glitch ... So what do we want to run and what do we want to show to people? If the community grows, are we ok to add more rules or to delete some? To add more categorys? ...

(God i write way to much but i have other thing i want to discuss)

To use the experience of the Zerator's event, for my part i give up after 24 hours of runs, even if we were at the 2nd time of tale 9 with more than 2 hours ahead, because even before the event start some people contact me on discord to tell me that our runs sucks, because we could have launche the quest already on the Tribute Peaks for the Tale 9 (i told to those people that it was not in the rules but it will a pleasure to sea an other crew find a new way to do it faster), that the rules no glitch was on this event and we did not have our place here, that we were watched (and god we were, i spent lot of time reading mp of people talling me that we will be of course because i was talking of the runs that use what was consider as glitch, and only mentioning it), that after 23 hours of run our run will not be tolerated because we did drop server at the tale 1 (1rst hour) even if we asked the team if it was tolerated, some watcher found it non acceptable so we were maybe disqualified but we have to keep running, it'll be decided later if we won or not. I personnaly struggle against pride (i don't tell anyone of my friends that i did speed runs because i only do it for me, not to expect some congrats from people) and were doing this marathon to enlight the speedrun community, we were not welcome, but in the oposite way, not neutral. And the idea after 23 hours of run for may be treated like impostors or cheaters, that the enlightment to the speedrun community was bad and that a new rules poped out from no where allowing crews to dupe the medaillons i felt not respected, after all the message i received, so i gave up. But here, what do we want to show? If we place rules it's to avoid people being arrogant and saying the runs that were submited sucks because we did not use this or this. I think we have to make the rules to allow new competitor to come and join in and adding some respect to the runners, because every one that submit his run here deserve respect, because it take time to plan the road, to play with this rng, and it takes lots of effort to make good looking runs; even if it's not world recors. I personaly want this place to treat the ancient runners with respect even in the fact in adding rules and to warmly welcome newcomers. This is why i struggle at this moment, cause adding a new rule is necessary, but will impact the way people will see the runs, they will play it and join the crew.

Should we had the rules to what is important to us? To what give us advantage for our new strategy that will may be patched in somes month or years? Should we focus on what is faster or prettier? Or just on what want want to play?

May be i'm taking this to much, but i don't want to exlude some old runners or newcomers with new rules, if they have the respect to take this seriously. And that's why i want this to be done with caution.

England

Obviously this isn't an easy one to solve, and as a mod the rule generally is that I'm not gonna add a rule unless the community (Mainly the runners) agree on it. Personally, I'm happy with the rule "Run cannot be started using a checkpoint" which should work with having to be at the starting island. I'm also personally okay with placing kegs before you start, but we can have the "Kegs can be on the boat" as a compromise rule (Though this is ultimately pointless for TT9 because getting the kegs through the traps is much slower than the current method).

I still have 2 problems to deal with though, firstly, a new runner messaged me recently asking if he could use kegs on the gold hoarder, it's actually this message that made me bring up the keg thing. I can tell him the rules have changed before he submits it of course, but I thought this was good evidence that new runners don't mind doing the preparation.

Second: Is it possible for me to start a tall tale, vote to end it, then have a crew member join who is on the final checkpoint so we can vote to start from there. I will have started without using checkpoints, but someone with a later checkpoint saved joined my crew and let my skip to the end. It doesn't break any rules, but we can't really allow that.

France

About your last point, this is obviously a case of exploiting the rules's wording. An additional line should fix it. Not sure how to write it but something like this ?

"A run cannot be started from a checkpoint" "Using checkpoints is allowed during a run if it was reached during this run. You cannot use any TT checkpoints stored before the run began."

I didn't try any of the checkpoints stuff so I don't know how they deal with TT rng. (Can the islands/totems be rerolled this way ?). But I think they should be allowed as long as they don't simplify TT progression too much.

Toastiewaffles likes this
England

Yeah, those rules clarifications are the main issue, because people DO try and exploit the wording, but I think you've summed it up in a way that works there. If no-one has any problem with it, I'll add the checkpoints rule tonight to give time for discussion.

MrLeSinge and Anemion like this