Questions/Philosophy about the use of a certain glitch in 96 Exit...
6 years ago
United States

Hello SMW folks. New to the community, but I've been lurking around the speedrun scene for quite a while now. Nice to meet you all!

A while back, I actually began learning the run(s) for the 96 exit category in SMW. (It's also worth mentioning that this is my first ever serious attempt at speedrunning.) It's a long one, but I really enjoy the feeling of learning different strats on so many different levels.

And now to my point. This category requires so many different techniques and skills to master, and I don't have an issue with any of them - except one...

The duplication glitch - mostly when used to obtain wings in levels where they don't exist normally.

To me, the spawning of wings where they should not be...it just feels extremely out of place in a run that focuses on "clearing" (as the rules say) every "intended" exit of the game. (Truly, this has nothing to do with the level of difficulty of the trick. Just the outcome of the glitch.) Getting the wings in VD1 just doesn't feel right to me, because they aren't even supposed to be there. What I mean is...they don't seem like an "intended exit" to me, not at all.

Here's my thought process. The orb/cloud glitch isn't allowed. Why is that? (And I honestly don't know the real answer for sure. I just have been assuming it's because it defeats the purpose of 96 exit by skipping entire levels.) By no means am I opposed to EVERY glitch, it's just dependent on what the glitch does. For example, in VD2, the Yoshi Clip is definitely a glitch, but I've got no issue with it at all. Why? Because you are still completing the stage as intended at the end of the day, i.e. by travelling through the gate/keyhole/etc. Duplicating blocks doesn't always seem like a terrible thing, but when you can use it to skip levels (and not like the cape skips levels), it just feels like cheating the game, not beating it.

So, I just wanted to ask you guys a few things.

  1. Why is this glitch allowed when the orb is not? Was there ever a formal decision made, or discussion had on the fundamental differences between them?

(This next question is the main reason I wrote this up.)

  1. Is it possible that a glitch-less 96 exit category could be considered? I'm not sure if this has ever been discussed before, or if there's a good reason not to have one, but I would much prefer to do my runs without the wings.

Now, what I'm expecting someone to say is, "You don't have to get the wings if you don't want to. You'll lose time, but you can run the category however you want." And yeah, that's true. But the reason for wanting a category without them has nothing to do with saving time for me - it's just that this specific glitch does not make me feel like I beat the level, or even had a legitimate run at all.

  1. What is the definition of "clearing every intended exit"? I'm not being sarcastic, or rude here - I genuinely want to know. I just can't wrap my head around the difference between spawning orbs to complete stages, or spawning wings, or why one is allowed and one isn't.

I hope I was clear enough in all of that. Drawing lines on what is allowed and what isn't is a slippery slope, it always is. None of it is meant to be taken as a complaint, but a new runner looking for deeper understanding of this game. Thanks in advance for any help, advice, or information you have for me.

Blamesday, AquaBlake, and Dutchj like this
Mexico

hi, I'm no expert at the game and I'm stil llearning a lot about the game, but here's my opinion:

The wing thing seems to be ok, in the end it counts as a normal exit an whe you finish the game, the game recognizes the 96 exits, so it's ok by the game itself. In every level where you get the wings normally, when you finish it, it counts as a normal exit.

I was also against banning the orb, and while there might not be a logical reason to ban it, I guess it's banned because otherwise you'd just go back to get a lot of orbs, I know it takes a while but it might be some exits where it would be worth it.

North Carolina, USA

This topic tends to devolve into a mess, but honestly, I think that you have presented your case in an articulate way and you seem to understand the nuance of the problem, so I think this is a worthwhile discussion.

  1. The distinction between runs with and without orb originated from the old nicovideo leaderboards, where there were two versions of every category: "orb stock" and "no orb stock". I think there was a natural desire to have only one leaderboard whenever the original western SMW leaderboards first were created, and that, I'd imagine, led to the seemingly arbitrary decision to make "no orb stock" the default.

As to the common arguments against orb: you don't actually end up having to play the level as intended, and that feels like it runs counter to the purpose of the category, but as you've already pointed out, that's kind of an issue with wings as well. I'd like to suggest the following idea: wings are only available in levels which certain conditions are met to allow you to get them quickly enough for them to be useful, whereas orb lets ¤¤you¤¤ choose where to use it, which is perhaps a bigger problem. Furthermore, orb has the potential to crash the game when you obtain it. The item swap is notoriously fickle and rather challenging, whereas wings simply cannot crash the game (though you can get trapped in the infinite bonus game in some cases)

  1. The decision to include "glitchless" as a variable for the 11-exit leaderboards was to help people find strats for the way they were choosing to run the game, but no one really acknowledges a specific WR for "glitchless" 11-exit versus orb 11-exit versus cloud 11-exit. It's one category, and the variables help people know what strats were used in the run.

You won't like my answer. It's the one you already said: don't do the glitch. Put "glitchless" in the title of your VOD. There is no shame in running the game the way that makes you happiest. Some of the runs on the leaderboard that have stood the longest are ones that came from a time before those glitches were either known about or used in runs. You can do quite well without every glitch in the game. All of the possible wings in the game probably add up to less than 90 seconds of timesaves.

  1. "clearing every intended exit" is a nod to the fact that you can get additional exits in the game from stages that you shouldn't be able to: if you use an orb in Bowser's castle, you can get an exit that you were never meant to. Those exits are what make categories like A2 possible (102 exits). The rule is that you are required to get every exit that would be possible to obtain in the game without glitches. But you are allowed to use glitches. We have just, as a community, made the decision that orb is not allowed because of the likelihood of crashing the game and the number of exits that would be optimal to obtain with orb (something in the ballpark of 20), the category is better off without it.

That being said, we have talked about having an additional category that permits orb in 96 exit because it is interesting in it's own right. However, that is a separate discussion. I hope that helps you understand.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Blamesday, Dode and 10 others like this
United States

Thank you for the responses, I really appreciate the time you took to write them up. Especially authorblues. You went above and beyond what I expected from the average forum response - and not a "git gud" in sight.

Firstly, you seem to be incredibly familiar with the history of SMW speedrunning in general, and that gives me great confidence in your answers. There really are no easily searchable primary sources for this sort of information, "An History of Super Mario World Speedrunning", as it were, but this discussion could potentially be used as one someday. Plus, I appreciate a good history lesson any day of the week, and your answers to my first question really help clarify things for me. However, something does raise a hypothetical in my mind.

You note that a major difference between the orb and the wings is the orb's ability to grant a free pass to essentially any level, including those where the item was not obtainable normally. This is a distinction that I overlooked, and definitely helps in understanding a fundamental difference between their usage. That said, you also mention that the orb's nature is volatile, capable of crashing the game once it is obtained. The wings do not crash the game, and they can only be used in levels that meet relatively specific conditions. So, hypothetically speaking, would there be a change of opinion if by obtaining the wings, the game could crash just as easily, or if they could be stored for use elsewhere? Basically, I'm asking is it about HOW they are gotten, or WHAT can be done with them, or something else completely.

Secondly, no worries about your answer to number 2. I knew it was coming, and it makes sense. But, like you said, I can easily run the game without them. As of now, I have not even completed one complete 96 exit in a single sitting, just practice on levels and worlds, so it hasn't been a problem just yet. Still, when the day comes that I attempt my first full serious run, I will most likely end up not using the wings. It's not like I'll even be attempting to come close to the world record anytime soon, or ever. If a day ever comes that those 90 seconds that all the wings save would mean me getting a WR, I may be singing a different tune, or experimenting with all sorts of half-baked, homebrewed strats to make up the difference. We'll cross that bridge if it ever even makes it through the planning phase.

But, I wouldn't actually put "glitchless" in the run, because to be honest, I can't seem to decide what a glitch actually constitutes. Maybe just "wingless", haha. I should have never read Plato...

Third, the thought that "clearing every intended exit" was actually a nod to the fact that a few unfinished/leftover stages in the games memory are not necessary in the run actually crossed my mind. However, when I started focusing on the glitch, I totally forgot that theory.

Also, I think it goes beyond me sometimes how the rules of the speedrunning community came to be. It happened very organically, it seems, and no one person sat down and wrote a rule book on how it should be done. I can appreciate that a lot, and my fondness for the community only grows after this discussion.

Thanks again for the thoughtful response. It helped a lot.

North Carolina, USA

I'll echo the "You can get a great time without them" comment. My PB is a 1:26:59 without any wing spawning.