Persona 5 - Forums - NG+ runs?

Hey so like I was thinking of spearheading a NG+ true/good ending category or something along those lines if its allowed. I would like to see one added because I think NG+ runs would be fun to see how much time can be cut down from normal runs. Even an ANY% NG+ run would be nice, I want to run this game but I don't want to spend 18+ hours playing a normal playthrough.

She/Her

The game's time can probably be lower than 18 hours provided you don't stick to a full "HARD" mode run, like the current 3 runs posted did. My time at least is in no way a good example of how long a run actually takes because it was more a learning the ropes type run.

Lots of moments in the game can be faster provided you switch to Easy/Normal mid-run. Like all of Kamoshida's dungeon, Madarame's Dungeon, Kaneshiro's Dungeon and a lot of other areas where mirror's aren't abused to deal high damage.

NG+ runs generally aren't looked at too fondy in Persona mostly because they're usually just abusing very powerful setups (Heat Riser, Debilitate, Charge and Hassou Tobi would pretty much demolish anything not resistant to Physical), meaning bosses are next to no threat whatsoever. Leaving the only player input in the run pretty much being dodging shadows and getting lucky with floor placements in Mementos as well as optimal movement/menus through the game.

Edited by the author 6 years ago

I get that totally but I think there is a lot of skill required in that by itself through the menuing, walking/running and enemy placements. I think at the very least opening up a NG+ merciless runs would be great if nothing else. I just want to see more variety in runs and if no one else is willing to do so then I will. I really love this game and I would love to see more speedrun variety than just being stuck to one way of speedrunning the game.

She/Her

No one is stopping anyone from speedrunning the game they choose. It's mostly just that as far as New Game goes, every possibility hasn't been fully realized yet and explored. So that's, logically, the most competitive 'category'.

Strategy in battles won't be a thing on NG+ because you'll be basically 2-3 turning every boss before Sae and totally invulnerable for the most part -- on account of the Omnipotent Orb that neutralizes all damage except Almighty, it would therefore be next to impossible to actually die to anything baring Shido and Yaldabaoth.

As far as dungeons go and shadow dodging, it'll probably end up with people just immediately crafting a ton of smokescreens and hypno mists, on account of money carrying over and days not having to be spent on leveling confidants, raising stats, etc and thus all rooms in every dungeon can just be easily gotten through without any issue of ever being put into a fight.

As far as the leaderboard goes, focus is probably intended to be for players to experiment with the NG route because that's the route that allows the most experimentation. The game is only like... a few months old to most that hadn't played the Japanese version, and a game like this takes a long time to fully optimize and work out a refined route for. Games like Persona 4 Golden have only recently received route changes that made those games faster, and that game is several years old. I don't think it's at a period in time, at least in my opinion, where lack of variety in runs of P5 is a thing warranting change for the board considering only 3 people at the moment have runs posted.

Edited by the author 6 years ago

Okay I see what you're saying now.

I'd be more than willing to help with routing a NG+ run and setting up a guide for it.

I just think Persona 5 might be more ran by other runners if there was a NG+ category, it would definitely increase the density of runners for it and hey, maybe more people will do the normal True Ending.

All in all, I would like to see a new category for NG+ to come up and I'll put in the work for it.

Everything necessary has already been mentioned in either this, or one of the other 5 threads about this topic.

Anyways... To this point, there's still only one person who actually finished a NG+ run of this game. To no one's surprise, that also appears to be his only run ever completed. While I could be wrong on this, given that I'm not following anything in that regard, it is exactly what I've been mentioning over and over. NG+ just won't be competitive whatsoever, because it's a lazy alternative to doing actual runs. People will do a single run and then never improve. If people want to go home, sleep, 1-shot every boss. Sure, let them be my guest and do whatever they please to do.

Also, your argument about the menuing etc. being a skill in itself in NG+ is a moot point in my opinion and I'd disagree. Using cursor memory and spamming the same ability every single time you fight a mandatory enemy involves no actual menuing. Dodging shadows is no different in a NG run than it would be in a NG+ run, starting after the 1st palace.

On top of that, the amount of people screaming "I wanna do a NG+ run of this game that I like so much" who then never even do anything in that regard is also large.

Again, people should do whatever they want. Several years ago, there were almost no leaderboards whatsoever and people managed. I don't see why it's so important now to have unnecessary categories on the boards and why it would prevent people from running whatever they want.

I can see where you're coming from, I have to respectfully disagree.

Firstly I don't think that its fair to pass judgement of a run category due to the fact that there was only one person who had done the run once. If it's dedication then again, I will do my part to make this category happen.

I watched and follow many people who play NG+ runs in other games and I can attest, as well as they, that NG+ runs are not lazy by any regards. Yes, fights and bosses are incredibly easy and I will not deny that but it is the same in other games that allow NG+ runs. Menuing and movement vital to making it to the next PB and with a game like Persona where enemies have strengths and weaknesses and a runner has to keep in mind how much HP and SP they use per battle. If almighty skills are such an issue then lets ban them, I have no quarrel with that. Even my current Satanael build is purely gun skills.

On the topic of a handful of people saying "I want to do this run because X reason" and not doing anything about it. In this case, you are the only one replying to the NG+ threads and making it feel like that people are not welcomed to enjoy a new possible category by replying with the same reasoning and making it sound like you're not up to consideration of it. And I find to be pointless to have two other moderators for this game and yet you're the only one making any responses what so ever.

Edited by the author 6 years ago

It seems we can agree to disagree in that case.

"If almighty skills are such an issue then lets ban them, I have no quarrel with that." - You're missing the actual problem here. Arbitrary restrictions isn't what is needed.

Judging by your last paragraph, you seem to be preferring if instead of me, no one actually responded to the threads? Aside from the fact that you're wrong as you can clearly see that someone else aside from me responded to the thread(s). Just because the other mod doesn't generally respond to a lot of stuff on forums doesn't make it pointless to have another. That leaves aside Ghoul, who simply created be page as it's more convenient to do as series mod.

You bring up the issue that the run would be too easy but shoot down every chance for a restriction, I don't think that keeping almighty out of the run is unreasonable nor unnecessary.

I apologize if I seemed to come off a little combative there, it's just very suspicious that the only mod that has been responding to other people and being active happens to be you.

She/Her

It's not you casting almighty that's the problem, it's almighty being the only thing able to affect you if you have the Omnipotent Orb equipped. Omnipotent Orb neutralizes all damage done to you that isn't almighty.

Banning Omnipotent Orb would be pointless, because NG+'s point is using all your abilities/personas/items/money etc from prior playthroughs to blow through the game. It's why banning things on NG+ is silly if anything, because it's entire premise is based on using the most powerful stuff from a previous playthrough.

Edited by the author 6 years ago

I understand that NG+ is about being as strong as you can to blow through the game but if the reason why there is no leaderboards for it for this game because of XYZ then restrictions should be put on those I feel. There are NG+ runs that do have restrictions, such as RE4 NG+ not allowing infinite ammo. So again I reiterate that its not unreasonable to have a restriction or two. At the very least, not allowing Omni Orb.

She/Her

Off topic but RE4's Infinite Ammo property only belongs to the Infinite Launcher, the Chicago Typewriter, the P.R.L. 412 and the Handcannon. You can't get infinite ammo for non-special weapons in RE4, and they do use the Infinite Launcher, P.R.L and Chicago Typewriter in runs. There isn't any restriction in RE4's NG+.

End of the day though this decision isn't up to me.

Edited by the author 6 years ago

Nightbarrel 6 years ago

Chiming in, even though this thread hasn't had a post in about a month.

Sure, I may have done one actual run of NG+ and nothing else after, but there is a reason for that. There is simply no carrot at the end of the stick. I would be fine to fine-tune routing and keep doing these runs every once in a while and help out those who are looking to actually run the category. However, it feels like it's difficult to get a foot in the door to showcase these runs. I'm not a very big channel on twitch/youtube. I don't have many followers/subscribers. SRC is one of the very few places where I can show the potential of the games that I run. Granted, I've had a couple of people ask me about some stuff about my run, and they've even done runs themselves. But the problem is that we have difficulties of showing that bit of growth and progress.

On the part of "people screaming 'I wanna do a NG+ run of this game that I like so much' who then never even do anything in that regard": I can imagine someone looking to actually run NG+, go to the SRC page, see that there's no category for it, go to the forums, and see that the category might never be accepted as "official". That can be very discouraging, and I believe that it's a big contributor as to why you don't see more people wanting to do this category. Again, it feels like there's no carrot at the end of the stick, in this case, recognition on the leaderboards for a game that they enjoy. You also said that people did fine without leaderboards back in the day. Well we DO have leaderboards now, and I'm not talking about the one for NG+ that someone made here in the forums not long ago. Just throwing that in there.

As far as routing is concerned, yes it may be a lot more simplified that a regular NG run. However, my only run may not be the end all be all route of NG+. Who knows? Maybe someone who has the time might come across something that I may not have accounted for that might save a good chunk of time. But we might never see that, and I may sound like I'm giving up on it, but it's far from that. It's just that I feel that things would've been different if we had been given a chance instead of being shut down all the time. I mean we've seen a few people ask about NG+, and when they were told "no", they try and offer suggestions to try and keep the idea alive and make NG+ seem more interesting. Yet, they were shut down just as quickly because it's silly to try and make the category artificially difficult.

It's frustrating to me that I get asked about my run and see people actually do these runs, and yet we have nothing to show for it. To me, I'm concerned about the separation of the P5 speedrunning community, and I would hate to not run this game again in the future because of it.

To address some of your points.

If you say there's no carrot at the end of the stick and that being the reason why you've only done one run, you make it sounds like the only reason you did one run to begin with was because you wanted it to be on a leaderboard. Granted, this can be interpreted differently but it's the feeling I personally get.

I am aware that this past week, there's been two new additions in terms of runs. The real point and question is, if it follow the pattern that I've been describing over and over, whereas those runs will be their only ones in this "category", which, as I've also stated times over, is exactly what bugs me about adding it as a category. Obviously, you can't force people to continuously do runs. I get that. However that brings me back to my point of "Why have a category on a board so people can compete if they don't actually want to compete". It just underlines what I've been stating in the past, that a lot of people simply do a run to have a time on some board.

As far as the discouragement goes, I can partly see your point. However, I've also stated that if there's actual competition for it in the future, that it can very well be added as a category. That doesn't only apply to NG+ but to all categories, as long as they're somewhat reasonable of course. The other part that I see is yet again related to what I've described above. Personally I see it as an unhealthy mindset to run solely for leaderboard purposes and not for actually wanting to play the game fast, let it be NG or NG+. I also think that an even bigger contributor is the fact that people realize NG+ is a bad choice and that's why they don't run it.

In terms of the routing part. I'll just be honest here. People want their category to be taken seriously, yet it appears people refuse to even look at the actual category's run to learn from it. While I haven't watched every single second of each of the three NG+ runs, I can safely say that there are very many occasions where extremely unnecessary stuff is done in the NG+ run. A primary example would be fighting optional encounters, which, "obviously" needs to be done to a certain degree in the normal run. However, if the NG+ run ends up fighting extra encounters in almost every palace, it's crystal clear that something is wrong here. It was something I pointed out when you first did your run, too, after I saw that some of your treasure routes were slower than mine or just barely faster at all.

Also, not once have I said "No, this category will never be added". So saying that you weren't given a chance and were being shut down all the time, seems kinda unfitting to me. The parts that were being shut down were all related to arbitrary restriction. Other people like Wulfz have also explained it many times in addition that it's not what this category would need. Unless, of course, you were considering to be shut down when I stated that, as for now, the category won't be added until it has some actual competition.

lilfatkid 6 years ago

Nev this is inconsistent with the other SMT boards which do have ng+ runs with little competition (because the series as a whole doesn't have competition). Like Persona 4 having ng+ runs but not this comes off as a double standard, not to mention 3 new game+ runs is almost as much as ng and more than any other persona game I can think of. I'll keep saying it just let them put their shitty ng+ runs on here and hopefully they get better. If not who cares. This is literally people telling you it's killing their motivation and your doing so for no good reason.

Gold

He/Him

Hey all.

I got through all of the arguments on all the sides and i'll just throw in my side too. I'll have a word with my dear friend Salad too for his thoughts.

I did my NG+ run recently thanks to this thread. The reason for this is because I stated at ESA 2017 to Nev himself in person that I had plans to run NG+ as a run when I had time. I'd like you all to remember this "when I had time" statement. Summer came and went and I burnt myself out on playing P5 so I put off doing the runs. September came and so did class and work time. I have no more time to do 10+ hour runs outside of weekends.

Cut to late September and I came onto the forum after seeing Cereth streaming learning and noticed this thread. This is where I saw the line "On top of that, the amount of people screaming "I wanna do a NG+ run of this game that I like so much" who then never even do anything in that regard is also large.". This sent my motivation into overdrive. Even if it wasnt directly mentioning me, I knew I was apart of the percentage. So I got to work on the run, watching through Nev and NightBarrels records and running through the game making notes with what I had.

Of course my NG+ run isnt good by any means since I lost alot of time, but isnt all first runs supposed to not be good? I learned alot of things from finally sitting down and finishing my run, stuff such as: Omnipotent Orb is only really useful for 1 or 2 palaces, running past shadows rather than just killing them is way faster and my Yoshitsune could do with a few accuracy and crit buffs like Apt Pupil and Auto Sukukaja (also the Mementos Scan procs). Normal stuff you learn from your first run and stuff I have already changed my notes to adjust and have ready for my second run I plan to do very soon. So no. I did not refuse to look at runs, I just didnt have the necessary things to make notes on my own outside of NightBarrels own run so I had to do a run myself™.

I don't care as much about the leaderboards as some since I just made my own but what I do care about is this bias towards NG+. Yes the category is just "spamming the same thing over and over" and sleeping until the next Palace. However that is still a way of beating the game fast and that is how we choose to do it whether you like it or not. I personally dont care if you take the category seriously but I'd rather not see stuff like "running NG+ is like running a Visual Novel lol XD!!!!" and "NG+ literally takes no effort to run lol!!!". I'd also rather not see people ask me why theres no leaderboards or why I didnt say that I beat record when I beat Nev's time but they dont annoy me as much as the constant shitting on NG+.

The last point i'd like to make is Time. We all have our different lives and when we can do things. I personally have class 4 times a week and work the other 3 days. I dont have time to do 15+ hour runs. I wont be able to do another NG+ run now til 2 weeks from now when I have time off class. Saying that "so far i've only seen one run from each person" and saying theres no competition is also dumb. I'd like to remind you of the last time you did a full run Nev? Cereth does his runs and Furry has his capture card issues so I think you'd have to look at yourself first before judging when other people do runs. Also saying "if you are gonna take time to learn 14 hours of the game you should just learn the other 4 lol!" is retarded. You saw yourselves how I still lost 2 hours to the record in NG+. Imagine that with NG. Hell look at Cereths runs. He knows exactly what he's doing in his runs and still got a 22 hour first run. I don't about you but I dont have time to do 22 hour runs. I will be sticking to my 12 hour~ runs thanks.

I will continue to run NG+ with or without the support of a leaderboards. It wont be as often as you would LOVE it to be but it will still happen. I dont care about comparing to other SMT games or the like, I just want some damn support from fellow lovers and runners of the game, cheap strats or not.

God bless you all

Edited by the author 6 years ago

Two things first, then I'll address some points of Gold's post.

Firstly, thanks for your uninformed opinion as always, Fatkid. Take a minute or two and read up on the matter in one of the other threads.

Secondly, this is what I'm gonna do. For now, I'll add the category and continue to watch its progress (just like I've been doing so far since the first NG+ run). If it still ends as expected in the future, I'll eventually remove it again. This will take a while because I'll have to sit through all of the 3 runs first, so don't expect it to be up right away.

"I personally dont care if you take the category seriously but I'd rather not see stuff like "running NG+ is like running a Visual Novel lol XD!!!!" and "NG+ literally takes no effort to run lol!!!".

That's stuff you'll have to live with. Not everyone shares your opinion on NG+ runs, as you can clearly see. Maybe some people don't voice their opinion on it as strongly as I do, but it's something you'll have to accept in that case, or let it trigger you for eternity.

"I'd also rather not see people ask me why theres no leaderboards or why I didnt say that I beat record when I beat Nev's time but they dont annoy me as much as the constant shitting on NG+. "

the second part of this doesn't even make sense as you didn't beat any times with your run anyways. As for the third part, you can read my above message.

"The last point i'd like to make is Time. We all have our different lives and when we can do things. I personally have class 4 times a week and work the other 3 days. I dont have time to do 15+ hour runs. I wont be able to do another NG+ run now til 2 weeks from now when I have time off class. Saying that "so far i've only seen one run from each person" and saying theres no competition is also dumb. I'd like to remind you of the last time you did a full run Nev? Cereth does his runs and Furry has his capture card issues so I think you'd have to look at yourself first before judging when other people do runs. Also saying "if you are gonna take time to learn 14 hours of the game you should just learn the other 4 lol!" is retarded. You saw yourselves how I still lost 2 hours to the record in NG+. Imagine that with NG. Hell look at Cereths runs. He knows exactly what he's doing in his runs and still got a 22 hour first run. I don't about you but I dont have time to do 22 hour runs. I will be sticking to my 12 hour~ runs thanks. "

Yes, people have their own schedules to attend to, who would have guessed. However, if you read my previous post carefully you'd have probably skipped the first half of this paragraph. NB's run was months ago. Yours were a few days ago. I clearly said that my actual question is if those runs will end up being the only ones. I didn't say anything about how frequent they'd have to be done or anything along those lines. As far as NB's run goes, it appears to be the case. As far as the other two go, we'll have to see, I guess.

I find it funny that you bring up when I've done my last run. For all I know I've been doing several runs and routed and re-routed the entire game countless times over ever since the release. Yes, Cereth does his runs. What are you trying to say with that? Also, how can you say he knows exactly what he's doing? Yes, I gave him my notes and helped him learn the game, but he barely watched anything of my PB run because he said he wanted to figure certain things out himself as it's more enjoyable for him to learn it that way. Fair enough, but it will leave him with certain things probably being far from optimal in comparison to what is currently known/done. I'd even go as far as saying if he watched the run a few times and straight up learned from that, his first run could have probably easily been sub 20h instead of 22h. Regardless, that's not what this topic is about but I figured I should bring it up since you were pointing at it. And no, I did not see myself how you lost 2 hours in NG+ as I haven't watched all of your run. In fact it baffled me even seeing that it was 2h slower.

lilfatkid 6 years ago

I have read them, but I guess it's easier to just dismiss what I'm saying. I thought they were valid points but I guess not. Clearly I need to make good points like "I'll add leaderboards when there's competition even though I'm trying to kill a category so there isn't competition"

Maybe you won't dismiss this one "as always"