I noticed that under the leader boards runs are just broken down into nightmare any% and Nightmare glitch less any%. It would be nice to see different categories for 1p, 2p,3p, and 4p; some maps are can be done faster just by having more players. be nice to see how fast someone could optimize something like wheat and chaff by themselves.

The other thing I'm very Curious to see the communities view on boons and the ruling on them. Are we going to allow each other to stack boons before we do runs, or are we going to just ban boons all together? Should having boons active move it into another leaderboard or just not allow them?

Hey thanks for posting. I think there should be a 1p, 2p, 3-4p, nm, cata, and true solo cata categories, but the problem is the just sheer lack of input from people who actually run those categories. Without a starting video for each category they will just continue to not exist.

My thought on boons is how on earth are you actually going to police this. If you ban them you only see 1 characters POV each run. Its much like using dll injects in the game atm. You cant really tell someones cheating by watching a single game run. Just like you wouldnt really be able to tell if 3 of the other team members have boons. Boons only help to make every stage faster. Just my 2cents tho. I can see why you'd want to ban em, but cant see anyway of enforcing it.

This game is one of the most difficult games that I mod and to police for cheating, etc and because of this I am struggling to make some of the changes people are requesting and getting unnecessary backlash, for future questions or concerns just contact me individually.

I don't see any reason why suggestions shouldn't be openly discussed on the forum rather than one on one with you personally. After all, the community input is important, as little as you seem to think it so. It might enlighten you as to the current state of the game, seeing as you are clearly at a disconnect with the game in its current state. Perhaps you're just trying to hide the public discontent with you personally. Seems to me progress is being made, and this page is more active than it's ever been, largely thanks to jeez0, but you're actively trying to impede this progress. Example: returning Full Leaderboard run back to the top as default, then deleting my thread requesting it to be put back. It's a dead category, and it makes the page look as if nobody has submitted a run in seven months. I wouldn't say any of the backlash that you've received is undo. You've done some pretty unheard of things so far.

Jeez0 can probably do the heavy lifting with some help, BNH. It's unreasonable for us to expect someone with little experience in the game to be able to handle our needs.

Individual levels are by far the most active and approachable categories for people. The web page should reflect this. As we're actively trying to get and keep people interested, burying times behind a layer of web page isn't optimal for our needs at the moment. We are legitimately trying to make this game a fun environment, and I'm sure you're the kind of person who can appreciate that. :D

There's still a fair amount of work to be done. Rules need to be updated for sure. We need to decide whether any% is still worth running with some stuff that's been discovered. Questions about bot warping and macro use need to be answered with some kind of uninimity. These are things we will deal with, we neither expect, nor want you to do things for us. As far as I'm concerned you're not obliged to us. Feel no guilt in taking a step back.

Regarding boons, it's absolutely unenforcable, but the community is small enough right now that I think honor system's good enough. Make it against the rules, and ask people to be decent human beings. If they don't, then so be it. They can trade their integrity for a small increase in completion times. It's similar with macro use. How can I say whether Jeez0 macroed his well watch? I trust that he didn't, but if he did it can't be proven one way or the other. I'm just happy people are running at all.

Im taking a step back from the flying. I feel it changes way to much. Even being able to do it 3 times opens so much. Since only 5 some people actually do it that play the game, and none of them have made any attempt to share the absolute bonker completion times. I dont want to push new speedrunners away with a near impossible trick. But yes I will look into updating the rules somethings need to be made clear. Like boons, macro, mods, whats a glitch n whats not for glitchless%

When I say contact me individually I generally say this to answer peoples questions in a timely manner which is why I spoke with you on discord Panda I was doing multiple things at once and it really surprised me that you suddenly became disrespectful on the steam conversation that shortly followed, just because this is a hobby doesn't mean you suddenly throw basic respect out the window lol. Throwing out insults just makes it easier to prioritize doing other things in my life lol, I don't understand why several people think doing this is going to get anything done, this is supposed to be a fun hobby/community with friendly people so showing basic respect will help you not get in your own way which I would hope is reasonable since I've done nothing but be friendly with everyone so taking out frustration on me for not getting your way is a bit silly. I've done runs for every level except the new 3 individually and a full game run for the 13 original maps so saying I have no experiences makes no sense. Pwny, Cletus and Panda, I noticed you all haven't submitted runs for any other game which leads me to believe you haven't done research on the sr community, how rules tend to go or what people generally agree upon and because some of you opened with insults I quickly became reluctant to just pass over mod with jeez0 being the exception because I personally did runs with him. Now if you wanted to address a layout preference you could have just asked everyone in the community what they wanted but because I've seen the majority request this then it can be done.

I spoke with other seasoned runners and active members/mods across the sr community, nothing I've done is unheard of but I will not tolerate toxic behavior, so that post I deleted was unnecessary. I have been talking to jeez0 about these changes and told him whats generally acceptable and what isn't and he made the changes since I was busy at the time. I don't mind having people dislike me or disagree with me lol but if you request something that is unreasonable or that doesn't have enough interest then I'm sorry how that makes you feel but that's the way leaderboards are ran, if you've come this far to do speedruns then you can go a little bit further to meet some of the basic expectations.

For the boons ordeal you are right and I agree with that statement and will add that addition to the rules since this is what I was leaning towards when I heard about them and how they work.

Many people I've met across sr.com have been really good friends and great people to interact with, some of which are like family that I never had personally, so in future posts try to keep that vibe going and I will work with you but try to understand where I'm coming from :).

I was simply pointing out that your experience in this game is enormously limited compared to the people playing it now. You quit playing it a long time ago, you have less playtime, and your knowledge of the game is incredibly out of date. This isn't an insult, it's just the way it is. It's also something you can fix if you want to, but I understand if you don't. It's a limitation you're going to have to work around, probably by listening to people like Jeez0 who know what's up.

You're entitled to continue working with us if that's your pleasure, but then the onus is on you to be responsive to the needs of the community that exists for this game. Heck, I'm happy if you're willing to do it, because I don't want to. I respect you taking time out of your day to help us. But that does mean you're beholden to our needs, not vice versa.

So long as you continue to be constructive and helpful you'll get no complaints from me.

As far as me doing research on other speedrunning communities, that's completely irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. I will do so if and when I become interested in running another game, and at that point, only as far as that game is concerned. I don't begrudge you attempting to use other communities as a template for this one initially, but if and when this game's needs deviate from other games standards, I don't expect to have to bend to fit the mold of a bunch of people who don't even know we exist, or care. If that means that this board isn't for me, then fine. I'll continue doing what I do without using this site, just as we've been doing for the last 6 months.

That's my way of saying you don't get to use 'other speedrunning communities do X' as an excuse for acting contrary to our expectations, by the way. Though I can't imagine there are very many situations where this applies. So certainly you won't bring it up again. =)

I look forward to you working with us in the future.

I loved playing and speedrunning this game and I take care of games that I moderate regardless of the whos and whats for the situation, given that there was updates, I appointed Jeez0 as another mod because I've been playing recently being busy playing or running other games.

I agree with you and that's how I generally feel about it but there has to be structure to an extent as everyone knows. More discussion just needs to be done with whos interested and who isn't for different suggestions :).

We have a lot of people in Discord, I'll see if I can talk people into being more active here when there's an issue to discuss. With so few people offering solid opinions, it's a dangerous line for those of us who do speak up. I certainly don't want to dictate policy for everyone without their input.

We have to keep in mind the Vermintide 'community' didn't exist until a couple weeks ago. Fatshark by virtue of their design philosophy made it a necessity to be insular and secretive regarding tricks. People ran as individuals or small groups, did their own things quietly, something like centralized categories could not exist easily. With 1.6 closing the door for all intents and purposes on any% people are coming out of their corners to share stuff now. With the devs tentatively offering a 'speedrun build', we have an incentive to show real interest. I hope more people do.

Wouldn't hurt if you came back and ran too BNH. =P

I guess the essence of what I'm saying is, keep in mind that people in this 'community' are used to not speaking up, and not sharing.

Yeah of course, generally each community has a discord for the game but the forums are basically the default location for discussion. Yeah I heard about people being secretive about it and I came across about 3 individuals doing what you are talking about and yes when I figured out you could despawn the entire level for The White Rat, Fatshark had an outrage and put in a little wooden post, we then hopped over it and did the same thing, after that they put a giant barrier around it. So yeah I think it's safe to say Fatshark hates speedrunners lol. This is a very strange community you're talking about but it does make sense that people don't want glitches and exploits to be found which is why the initial community was just myself, Jeez0 and whoever I found to be interested.

Was I rude to you? Absolutely. Do I feel it was uncalled for? Not really. You were being extremely authoritative on subjects while simultaneously making extremely asinine arguments. What really got under my skin was the fact that you were just so quick to dismiss and retort and defend the way things were, as if they were somehow etched into stone. As you yourself said on a thread on this very forum 10 months ago - We were the only runners in this community so there was never any discussions about these things. I can understand how being the moderator of so many games could cause you to quite quickly dismiss others suggestions on the grounds of past experience, but literally nothing you were saying was making any sense.

When we spoke, from my perspective, it very much felt as if you were just trying to come up with reasons as to why my suggestions were invalid. Suggestion: add 2P as a category

• It doesn't make any difference in completion times (this simply isn't true).
• Times are fastest with 4 players, so you should run with 4 players.
• Empty categories are bad (I'm sure you've seen how these categories have filled up in no time).
• I'm concerned about bot manipulation (despite the fact that you participated in and self approved a 4P run which did just that). And we can't forget the obligatory: - you're new to the SR community and this is the way things are.

These were the counter arguments you presented me and I couldn't help but be frustrated because literally none of these are valid counter arguments, yet I could feel this extremely strong air of authority and dominance.

As far as the thread I made. I simply made a couple of points. a.) There is zero interest in the full game run currently and it hasn't received a submission in over 7 months. b.) Putting it at the top of the board gives the impression that the game is dead. I'm sure the bigger reason it was deleted was because I called you an idiot, and I don't revoke that claim. You've said some stupid things and you've justified some stupid rules with stupid arguments.

Point is, I care about this game and it's largely in part to my efforts that this community has suddenly popped back into existence. Having to go through you specifically has been especially frustrating because of your learned position of authority, which you came into possession of not by some formal qualifications or experience thereof, but because you got your foot in the door first. I'm not the only one who has gotten a bad impression of you, or lashed out at you. It's something about the combination of ignorance and total confidence that is really triggering. If you still want your name to appear on that precious moderator list, so be it, but I think you need to recognize that there are people far more qualified to handle your position than you are, and you shouldn't be so quick to defend the status quo, just because you've been active in the community for a long time.

Panda, you make way too many assumptions and are saying things that aren't true and are mixing things up. The only thing I really mentioned about the categories was if there was enough interest in them and talking about how to categorize them and talking about the differences are between them when thinking of keeping the runs joined together "1-4", but when separated it doesn't matter now. When I was talking with you it was a discussion of what is better as in, 4 players may be better on this map while 2 may be better on this one, I wasn't stating one single thing, I was talking with you about it in present times and thinking about what could be better. Your perspective is so jaded that it seems like anything I say will upset you, it's good that you care about the game but it's not okay to keep this abrasive attitude that you have. If something didn't make sense to you, ask why and try to understand because then a solution could be tailored to fit the situation rather then just calling me an idiot because I said a certain idea wouldn't work. Yeah there wasn't a discussion on these things because we came in, did all the runs and left and now people are interested so changes are being made to best fit the game in its current state and current interest which seems to be individual levels rather then full game runs. Yes, if people had a few runs for a category already on video then it's fine to approve that category rather then stating the runs will be done with no follow up, I didn't say that no one would do it but was requesting for the runs to be done first. I said I was wondering what you can do with bot manip, not concerned about it. The only reason I'm bringing up that you are new to the SR community is that no one who has been around in a few different communities would be so disrespectful and demanding without consulting the community in the forums about requesting and talking about different things as well as being familiar with how rules and categories are generally setup. I mean I'm sorry but why care about someone who loses control so easily and calls someone an idiot because there is a difference of opinion, it just becomes a waste of time at that point. The discussion was already in another thread and it was just another toxic provocative statement. I can be kind to you but it seems that you aren't capable of returning it which is just going to get you nowhere.

"These were the counter arguments you presented me and I couldn't help but be frustrated because literally none of these are valid counter arguments, yet I could feel this extremely strong air of authority and dominance."

This is your perspective and was not everything that I said either, once you heard something you didn't like you just blew up on me, everyone else I spoke with we figured something out but you just didn't even try, you thought the answer was doing what you did and I'm fairly confident no other Mod for any game would be this kind or patient with you.

"If you still want your name to appear on that precious moderator list, so be it, but I think you need to recognize that there are people far more qualified to handle your position than you are"

This is a really funny statement but simply not true as I made jeez0 a moderator. He's more interested in the game and knows the current updates.

"It's something about the combination of ignorance and total confidence that is really triggering."

I'm sorry that we have different opinions and viewpoints on things.

What's puzzling about my interactions with you is that all you are spending time doing is putting effort to try and make me look bad and put words into my mouth and ideas into my head that were never mine and it's just interesting how you were very friendly on discord and then do this. These interactions aren't time well spent and I was surprised you're still continuing to do this, you could just drop the frustration and I would still talk with you on discord about the needs of the community so long as you take a different approach with more consideration.