I got into AGDQ :) Also rule discussion
5 years ago
Florida, USA

After hard work and dedication they finally accepted my run which I'm super excited about. I mainly want to talk about the 15th anniversary edition. Mine came in the mail today and it's a bit different than the 20th port. There's a speed boost option you can turn on and off so obviously that's a no no when it comes to this port when enabling it because Lester runs unbelievably fast. Also I've noticed TimmyAkmed's run he glitches through a wall after escaping with buddy. It seems fine until he exits to the games main menu and presses continue to hit the next check point. He does that because it seems he can only glitch through the wall by doing a crouch animation that requires him not to use his gun. So basically from what I've seen he doesn't pick up his gun, glitches through the wall quits to the games main menu and continues during the next checkpoint so he's able to have his gun on him that he never picked up to begin with. If Timmy wants to explain this from his point of view I'd like to hear his side. From what I see right now he's using a unlocked checkpoint that already starts with the gun he never picked up.

Xander479 likes this
Staffordshire, England

The game assumes you've got the gun to get to that point, so even if you never pick up the gun, loading that checkpoint gives it you back. Just a programming oversight, and since it's in the glitched category I see no problem with it.

Also congrats on getting into AGDQ! It'll be good to see you there :)

Canada

Congrats on GDQ! I'll be there cheering for you. My version is the 20th, I'll be interested if you notice any other little differences between that and the 15th

Bretagne, France

Hey, just noticed this section and here is my POV on the situation: (Will only talk about the PC versions as it's the only one I've tried)

The first thing to know is that 15th Anniversary version is the fastest if you compare with 20th anniversary mostly due to cinematics taking longer for some weird reasons on the 20th. But for the time i've spent playing around on it, it seems that probably due to the average FPS being higher in the 20th version, the spawn behavior of the larves in the very first chapter seem less consistent and leading to probably more deaths in the end as you technically try to go as fast as you can.

This is the most obvious thing that probably affects the gameplay in differences between both versions. About the glitch in the jail chapter: as you noticed the only way to perform this glitch is to not pick up the gun right after escaping the cage.This leads to a different animation when crouching that allows the player to clip slightly through the wall. Then reach the checkpoint which allows me to reload. The game doesn't literally save your position but just that moment of the game when you reach it. That's why the save gives back the gun to the player.

There is only one thing I'm having a hard time to understand about the rules on the new "glitchless" category. It's about the fact that it doesn't allow "skips" WAIT WHAT!? As for all the games I've ran until now there have always been a consensus about the fact that "Skips" if done without any sort of glitches were allowed in glitchless categories and if categories were to be distinguished, it would require that one of those skips to be really heavy and for it to cut a huge part of the game. (even though most of those skips are probably glitched anyway) but here, the run is not even 10 minutes long it feels really weird to put in the same bag glitches and skips.

To go in-depth with my opinion, even glitchless is kinda redundant as the only glitch inside the game that allows the player to earn some seconds is right at the beginning. But let's say why not. It still looks weird to me to be forcing glitchless category to look like a walkthrough with arbitrary rules such as "you are forced to do this thing" or "that thing" It's really losing the point of a Speedrun. Many of the considered skips are just about timed jump to manipulate the ennemy behavior leading to being able to kill them or just to simply manipulate the badly made instant death scripts.

I'm really sorry if this wall of text sounds aggressive it's really not my point. I'm just wondering what was the thought process behind the new rules even though 100% category really needed to disappear as it didn't really make any sense in the first place.

United Kingdom

Glitchless was basically made as a replacement for ‘100%’, which with the window cutscene seemed to be a really arbitrary category. I personally wanted the category to be called ‘no skips’ or ‘no major glitches’ but we went with glitchless because it’s the simplest title? This is up for debate.

The reason skips aren’t allowed in that category essentially carries over from the fact that 100% existed - but also that though many of the skips aren’t technically ‘glitches’, they are tricky to pull off and many seem to be very rng dependant and essentially frame perfect and just aren’t appealing to most runners (the number of runs on the two categories show that). We also thought it was silly that what separated the two categories for most people was literally just the window cutscene... So most people in any% were doing the ‘100%’ route but without watching the window cutscene and it was just a bit silly to have two separate categories for that.

I’d like to hear your opinion on what you would have liked the categories to be?

(I’d also like to add that many of the timed ‘skips’ cannot be done on console, or are near impossible - or at least I’ve never seen anyone pull them off. So in this case whichever version you are running on plays a very important role in which route you would take.)

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Florida, USA

For me personally there needed to be a Glitchless category or no Major Glitches.. Skips whatever you want to call it because to perform these skips on console is very rough compared to PC. The input is much faster in the PC port. I know this because I've messed around with both. Taking up to 10 - 15 tries to get certain skips while PC they were much easier using a controller or keyboard. Didn't matter. I simply changed the 100% to Glitchless because it seemed to make more sense because window scene is pointless. As for the gun glitch. It seems it's alright for the peeps in the community even tho you literally quit out the game without the gun only to come back and have your gun even tho you never picked it up to begin with. My point being. I'm trying to make a attempt to clean this game up as best as possible. I think having this category is important because as you can see on the leaderboards. It's the most ran and easiest for runners especially if they are beginners. Maybe a category name change is in order? Not sure.

Florida, USA

Any% No Skips would be a better name to classify it?

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Staffordshire, England

When it comes to naming categories, it sounds much less arbitrary in my opinion to have "Xless" rather than "No X" but it's not a big deal. I agree that glitchless is a misleading name if we're just banning all skips and should rather be called "Any% Skipless"

I also think since the route is pretty much exactly the same (minus the actual sips performed along the way) in both categories, it might be a better idea to just combine the two into "Any%" and have subcategories for "Skips" and "Skipless" etc. I'm interested to hear what everyone else thinks though

Beckski93 likes this
Florida, USA

I see your point. Maybe 100% wasn't such a bad category name after all if you think about it. The only issue I really saw in that was the window cutscene. 100% does define it well because you are doing everything that is intended like blasting the breaker boxes, shooting the lamp like you would in a complete playthrough. I'm pretty sure some of these skips are damn near impossible if you ran for example the sega genesis version or SNES so it does overall suit it and it seems that this category should stay because that's how most runners do play the game realistically. Also being limited for some runners on console I think it suits well. I don't know it just seems right because again, you are doing every single objective that the games intended for you to do. It's up to the community really.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Florida, USA

I think for me everyone's opinion is important. I feel that's a good reason why this game got accepted into GDQ. So I want to represent it the best I can and also want this community to always have a say on what they think is best to where we can come to a agreement.

United Kingdom

100% jars on me a little bit because I don’t feel this game fits any good definition of ‘100%’. Some games just don’t have a ‘100%’ completionist aspect to them and I believe this is one of them. There’s nothing to collect, no secrets, no best ending etc.

Though I also agree that ‘no skips’, ‘skipless’ and certainly ‘glitchless’ are not necessarily perfect titles either. ‘No skips’ or ‘skipless’ better defines what we aim to do in that category though, imo.

In one sense I almost think it would be best to just combine all the runs into one category of ‘any%’ - but then the glitch and few other skips that Timmy Akhmed performs in his run (and on the 15th Anniversary Edition) is very different to what every other runner on this board is doing (considering that they all run on the 20th Anniversary Edition too). I personally think cases could even be made to separate the two editions as well as PC vs. console - at least if this game was more popular... considering that for whatever reason the only two runners I’ve ever seen doing the glitches and skips both ran on 15th Anniversary. That isn’t to take away from the skill of those runs, it’s just something I’ve noticed, and I do think, all things considered, that there needs to be some kind of category for runners who are following the intended route.

Anyway, in spite of all that, I still think I’d vote for ‘no skips’ or ‘skipless’. As Xander said I think sub-categories of any% could work. If you guys want to change it back to 100% I’d be fine with that too, I just don’t think the name fits very well.

Xander479 likes this
Florida, USA

Alright thank you for your opinions. Xander you do a have a point so I changed it to Any% adding a subcategory for Skips and No Skips which I do think is best. Timmy I hope you understand this change because as you can tell by the leaderboards most people do run No Skips. Not only is it easier for console runners but PC runners as well if they are just starting out. I'm not trying to contradict myself from what I said earlier about it being easier to perform these skips on PC. Still took time to learn the strats and it's never going to be fully consistent and if it is for some? Water skip will never be. NintendoHardGamer said himself it's solely based off of RNG. It's just whether or not you get the correct beam blast through the wall and you have enough time to get past it before it hits you. I hope everyone is happy with this change. Like I said, I want to represent the game the best I can at AGDQ and this seems like the best way to go about it.

Xander479 and Beckski93 like this
Bretagne, France

After seeing the new changes, I really think right now is probably a better way to go even if, imo something still doesn't feel right, let me explain:

My 9:08 run is done using a reload and I really think it would be a fair decision to separate runs using a reload and those that don't. Right now, what "Any%" should define is litterally NHG's 8:03 run. (All skips and no reload)

The clip through the wall can still earn you some time even if you don't reload, (just go down the elevator and kill your character, you will respawn with the gun. Instead of 15/20s earned it's more like 3/5s) it doesn't feel right to force any runners to use that trick in the Any% category and probably should have it's own (Any% Reload trick) or, what could be decided is to only allow this trick in a Segmented Category.

In my mind the categories would look like that:

Any% / Any% Segmented

There is no point in having a Any% No Water Skip category until someone finally does it lol And since all versions seem to have little differences mainly with cinematics speed. If you really want to make a fair ranking for everyone. You would need to either count out cinematics time and lag time between level screens OR Separate every version and console. (Even though all skips and the gun glitch are possible on 3DS / SNES / PS4 / PC (15th and 20th versions) The only problem being that it's a bit harder to perform what I call the cage skip just before the arena due to the SNES controller being really bad for that. If you put the categories in that layout you could consider adding as a subcategory "Any% with Water Skip" for Any%.

There are some points though which I don't agree with, in Another World right now, there are no trick or glitch that are RNG dependant except for the Water Skip. It can happen that you die to a random laser (At the start of the Harem) Probably the game gives very low accuracy stats to these and 1 time in 1000 they will hit you. But at this point it's probably unintended from the game and shouldn't be taken into consideration. Right now, there are only 2 things that really need to be discussed it's about the "reload trick" and the "Water Skip" Since the Water Skip is entirely RNG dependent. What could be considered to have a clean leaderboard is having "Any%" as the best Single-Segment no reload route. And "Any% Segmented" the route which allows reloads.

@Beckski93 All the tricks that I've done in my 9:08 run have been done in my 10:26 run (except the reload but it does work) which is played on the 20th Anniversary you can see the run if you toggle the filter for obsoleted runs. I've switched to the 15th anniversary version only because I've noticed later that it was faster with the cinematics time. To be honest, I find it easier to perform most of the tricks in the 20th anniversary where the input feels way more responsive.

United Kingdom

I mean the issue I have is that nobody’s running the game with any of these skips apart from you - and we are trying to honour the existence of the 100% category by turning it into something that better defines it. I understand what you’re saying, and I almost agree that any% no skips is an odd category to have... but it’s also the way most people have ran this game since idk when.

Segmented could be an idea the mods could work with though.

Florida, USA

I see some points as well but realistically "No Skips" does make sense because again it may not be a huge difference in time but most runners as you can see prefer not to do the skips and to be honest I run a lot of games. Learning these skips can take time and as for the "Water Skip" that would simply be ran in "Skips" RNG or not once you decide to do that run it's up to you if you want to go balls deep and just go for it until you get it lol. As for your glitch at the beginning. The only way I agree with that is if you hit that trigger for the next checkpoint and you force suicide. Not only are you staying in game but you would return rightfully to where you hit that trigger checkpoint and have your weapon on you manipulating the game to think you picked it up earlier. We talk about time difference but option differences plays a huge role as well. If I'm not mistaken if you do this glitch let's say on the 3DO, Genesis, SNES port is there anyway to quit out or continue? I'm pretty sure for it to make sense for any port is to force suicide because unlocking that checkpoint can work on any version unlike quitting out and continuing like you would on the 15th or reloading a checkpoint like the 20th.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, France

It's not because you can't do, or don't have the skills to do the tricks, that you have have to isolate these tricks on a different category. Speedrun is all about tryhard, sharing strats and mutual help, not twisting rules at your convenience, just to keep your WR. :')

Staffordshire, England

I was fully for allowing the clip through the wall at the start in standard any% (or 'any% skips', however we end up calling it) until you mentioned you can't exit out on all versions. Many games have a certain version as the most ran because it's faster for one reason or another (often JP text speed etc) and I have no problem with that. It definitely changes things a bit if you can't exit out and reload on all versions, but I think if it were purely up to me (which of course it isn't) I'd choose to allow it in the skips subcategory. That subcategory should just be the fastest way to beat the game, with no restrictions imo; any skips not done is purely up the the runner and what they're comfortable with putting in runs

United Kingdom

Nobody's twisted rules at all @Ectoplasmus, I'm not sure what or who you're trying to accuse there.

Let me take you on a brief history of the categories for this game.

Previously, when Xander became a mod, there was a category called '100% with window cutscene'. Can we all agree that was a silly title for a category? So, Xander got rid of the 'with window cutscene' from the title and renamed the category to simply '100%' - though it was still in the rules that you had to go look at the window cutscene to fulfill 100% objectives.

The issue with this category that me and @Brandooates saw, was that the main difference between any% and 100% was now (for 99% of runners) JUST the window cutscene. They still played the game without skips, but what seemed to separate TWO WHOLE CATEGORIES, was basically just whether or not you went to look at that pointless cutscene and wasted a few seconds during your run. It's a cool cutscene but adds nothing to the game, doesn't affect the ending etc. so what's the point of looking at it during a speedrun? This game doesn't really have a 100% imo, and if it did couldn't you argue that every cutscene would count towards the run in that case?

Another issue with this category was that most people chose to run 100% because it was without skips, but would also post, or have their times posted, to any%, and so several runs were reaching both categories (which, imo, looked messy and didn't make a lot of sense). And can I just remind you, at this point, that Brando had WR for 100% and still would have if no changes had been made?

So to better convey the rules of the 100% category it was changed to 'glitchless' - which isn't a great fit either. As has been said in this thread, most of the skips themselves aren't actually glitches. Thus, now, 'no skips' is being tested as a sub-category. I understand if you don't agree with this and appreciate opinions that are not accusatory, but as I've already said - the mods are trying their best to honour the fact that 100% existed whilst trying to find a better name for it. I mean we could go back to calling it 100% - but personally I think it's an ill-fitting title.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
RetroBrando and Xander479 like this
Florida, USA

The problem with Ectoplasmus is he has no knowledge of the game so he's trying to get involved because he has nothing better to do. Take a look at the categories and see how many people run the "No Skips" Category. Tbh ever since the page cleaned itself up. Not only are more people running it, The game itself is getting a lot more attention. Not to mention it also got into GDQ. So quit being a little man and focus more on your own speedruns. :,) If you need any tips on this game or you plan to start running it feel free to message me and I'll help ya out <3

Edited by the author 5 years ago
United States

I personally think being flexible early on is great since there aren't a ton of runners on the leaderboard. It seems most runners are doing the no skip runs and since its on so many platforms there's flexibility right now which will draw in more people. Not everyone has a PC (I don't, and it could be a big cost). It's convenient that anyone with a PS4, Xbox One, PC etc could start running this game immediately. As new strats come out and appear I'm sure leaderboards will adapt also. So far I think this is going in a good organized direction.

RetroBrando and Beckski93 like this