About Overswarm's NG3 JP Low% in 15:39
5 years ago
Indiana, USA

Pacifist and Low% are both categories popularized by SDA. They have always been done in a particular way for the NG series. If I'm not mistaken the NG series was the first to present a pacifist run. Anyway, the point is that the rules for these categories have been long established, and it's a shame they weren't made clear in the first place for the games here on the speedrun.com rule sets.

Low% literally means the least amount of items required to beat a game. In the case of any of the NG games this would mean you only use a sword, as the items aren't necessary to complete the game. So unless the community wants to change these rules for some reason, any run with usage of items isn't rue to the rule set. I think is more of a communication error in the first place.

I'm open to correction if I'm wrong about any of the history on these categories of course, but there should be full clarification in the rules for the sake of those unaware of the category meanings.

Indiana, USA

Looks like the rules state that now at least anyway. Not sure when they didn't if this was an issue.

Kentucky, USA

They didn't until a short while ago. NG3's pacifist run was "Don't kill non-boss enemies" and NG3's Low% was "don't use ninpo".

By your statement, it looks like multiple runs need to rejected in NG2 and NG3.

Kentucky, USA

I'd also like to challenge the notion that "things were always done in a particular way for the NG series". That may be the case for NG1 and NG2, but it clearly hasn't been for NG3. I would know, because I'm the only person to ever run the category. :P

Indiana, USA

The point is that the rules preemptively existed for both categories. Therefore the problem is that it wasn't clarified. So low% and pacifist still have the same meaning regardless of the game they are applied to. Doesn't matter which Ninja Gaiden is being discussed since all three games have no effect over what a category means. If that makes sense. Just because you're the one that ran it doesn't necessarily mean you can change the rules of a whole category.

United States

Hope everyone is doing well.

I have always thought of Low% kind of being the opposite of 100% in runs and although there is no 100% category in NG games, if it did I would expect it to involve picking up every available item. In that case, wouldn't Low% mean not picking up ANY items at all? Technically, pacifist runs without item pickups seem to be closer to actual SRC Low% definition. NG Low% runs seem like they should be considered sword only.

Either way, rules differ between games, and it is up to the community to agree upon them. It sounds like the NG series rules have already been established. FWIW My opinion is that no optional health, sword, or item upgrades should be allowed in any low% run.

I plan on attempting this run in the near future so hopefully all this gets figured out by then! Thank you for taking the time to read this!

Kentucky, USA

@Angrylanks the rules didn't pre-emptively exist -- low% and pacifist don't have universal meanings across speedrun.com and there were no runs of Low% J. The "view rules" button doesn't provide clarification, it provides the rules. The rules aren't even self-evident in the slightest just based on the titles -- pacifist should just be "no non-mandatory enemies can be killed" with no additional changes.... but the people who actually run the category made the rules.

I just started speedrunning in July, haven't played NG1 since I was a child, and never saw NG2 until this year. How would I know what another game's community considers what the rules should be? Even in the case of pacifist runs, where gus ran using NG1 pacifist rules instead of NG3 pacifist rules, gus didn't follow the NG1 rules. Its being viewed as okay because.. why? Its older than a month so he gets a pass? Some unwritten understanding that people came up with before speedrun.com was even created, despite it being expressly forbidden in the rules?

It's bonkers that people keep saying "Ninja Gaiden community" when all the posters in the thread debating the rules only played NG1 and NG2. This is remarkably inconsistent and ultimately stems from the fact that you're trying to cram legacy NG1 rules into a separate game.

Low % (J) was fun to me because it was Any % with no ninpo usage. The vast majority of NG3 "fast strats" involve using the fire wheel and ninpo in key places. Playing through without ninpo brought about a markedly different experience using just the sword, but still enjoyable.

Pacifist (J) before the rule change was enjoyable to me because it involved routing (get the pickups you need for the boss) that was difficult compared to Any%, but just as necessary. You had to manage your health + deaths to make sure you had the right health/ninpo/art for the boss fight, otherwise you'd end up with a slow "low %" style boss fight.

These are both valid categories and were distinct and enjoyable compared to Any %.

In the five plus years this board has existed, there have been three runs in the non-Any% categories: Nanjimao's Low % US, which breaks the listed rules, gusmancini's Pacifist run, which breaks the listed rules, and my Low % (J) run, which didn't break the rules when submitted but will according to the rule change.

You're trying to tell me that "rules already existed and were agreed upon by the community", and I'm telling you that they obviously weren't. With your new rule changes, there are 0 valid runs for any non-any% category for Ninja Gaiden III. None of you play the game actively and only one person has ever submitted any time at all to the game.

Here's my suggestions:

Remove mods that don't play the game. Just because you play NG1 or NG2 is irrelevant to NG3. If you want to be a mod for NG3, play the game and submit a time so you have a deeper understanding. If you don't intuitively know why using up your ninpo early in a run to make your count 0 -- even if it doesn't kill anything -- is a game changer when it comes to boss fights, you shouldn't be making rules that affect that.

Add mods that do play the game. There are several high profile players for this game that I'm sure would be willing, you have your pick of the litter.

Instead of rejecting my run, create an alternate category: Any % (no ninpo). Rules the same as Any %, except Ninpo may not be used for any reason. "But that's a meme category" isn't really a valid defense, as your current choice of action is bringing the number of runs from a 5+ year category from "1" to "0". Why this wasn't discussed -- and why I wasn't contacted at all -- is beyond me, but I'd imagine it has something to do with it not being a NG1 category.

Create and maintain categories that people are willing to play.

There hasn't been a pacifist run in four years. The one time there was, the rules were changed to prevent the run from being submitted so it matched a different game. Have people who actually play Ninja Gaiden 3 decide what "pacifist" really means. Other games have simple, straightforward rules -- "no killing non-mandatory enemies". Maybe NG3's rules need to be more complicated, maybe they don't -- the NG3 players should decide, not NG1 players trying to make a different game fit old SDA rules for theirs. Personally I don't think Pacifist should be "Low % and also don't kill enemies".

There has been only one Low% US and one Low% J run. One has been rejected after a rule change (mine), and one should be rejected shortly as it clearly violates two rules. Have actual NG3 players decide what "Low %" means and alter the rules accordingly. If I wanted to fit the idea of Low %, I would allow the picking up of ninpo but not the usage of it.

What I wouldn't do is then go to the NG1 boards and change their rules to fit mine because reasons. It is incredibly disheartening to have this happen not once, but twice, from people who don't actually play the game but somehow moderate it. The rules have been changed multiple times now for multiple categories -- my run was rejected, another was moved, and checking Low% for NG3 now I see another had the rules altered to allow their run instead of rejecting it. The moderation has been incredibly inconsistent.

ShikenNuggets likes this
Kentucky, USA

I'd also like to add:

Guide to good moderation from SR.com:

One of the golden rules when it comes to game moderation is: “You do not decide for the community, the community decides for you.” Or alternatively: “You are a representative of the community, not the ruler.”

Right now the entirety of the Low % (J) community is myself, soon to be followed by Color Theory as he has run the game and plans to run this particular category in the future. I'd imagine we could come up with a list of rules for the category in about 2 minutes. Let us?

Indiana, USA

We are basically saying the same thing in one regard. I entirely agree that you wouldn't have a way to know this without it being presented properly. So yes, the rules didn't clarify since they were misrepresented in the first place. Still doesn't change the fact that these categories existed long before you and I started speedrunning, long before this site came to be, and with very particular conditions at that. If the community decides they should change then I have no real say in the matter. I merely want to communicate to others what this category is.

Kentucky, USA

@beerfullofbelly I'm not against similar games attempting to create consistency across the games (Ninja Gaiden Trilogy runs exist for a reason), but I am against entrants in only one game determining the rules of another. It really is a NG1/2 clique, I checked each name myself. Their desires aren't necessarily wrong or ill advised, but they shouldn't be the arbiters of it because they don't actually play the game and this leads to poor outcomes. I agree that its ludicrous, but my run was rejected and the rules changed by a mod who has no experience with this game and, in doing so, simultaneously invalidated two other years-old runs in his inexperience. That's not a sustainable structure and a poor precedent; there was no review of how these runs would affect existing runs or what would be best for NG3 -- just "is this like the rules we made for NG1". When people say "the ninja gaiden community" they're referring to the community for their game, not this one.

This is also a pattern, and not just a one-off mistake like I believed the first time this happened. The mods in charge of the rules for this board are not creating consistency across the boards or even within the ruleset themselves and, given the lack of attention to the NG3 sub-categories in terms of runs, have arguably constrained NG3 by demanding adherence to what is obviously an unpopular ruleset. The rules have changed, what? Three times? Four, in less than two months? Its a series of half-hearted band-aids meant to make sure things are like the other games, regardless of how the actual runners of the games have interpreted those rules. It doesn't make any sense to follow the rules that someone made for a different game before this site even existed.

The only players who have attempted Low%/Pacifist runs in NG1 that have attempted any runs in NG3 are you, Arcus, and gusmancini. The only person with a Low% or Pacifist run in both is gusmancini, and his run was four years ago. There is no "ninja gaiden community" crossover into Ninja Gaiden 3. Maybe there will be in the future, but there certainly isn't now. Why should an arbitrary group of people's arbitrary ruleset be arbitrarily applied to a different game?

You have greater merit towards NG3 than those who made the earlier decisions because you have actually run the game -- arguably more, since you're experienced in other NGaiden games as well -- but NG3 players should be using NG1 as a guideline, not a rulebook. I see multiple people discussing their different versions of what they think Low% means, but none of them have ever ran Low% or even intend to (Color Theory aside). The response to someone running a dead category with the rules as listed shouldn't be "change the rules and retroactively reject his run", especially when the run itself can't be moved because its a unique category in its own right.

The Any% (No ninpo) was my favorite challenge for Ninja Gaiden 3 but has no equal in NG1 or NG2 -- the closest is Low %, which is markedly different and not nearly enjoyable to me. It's a unique challenge in that its not as brutal as the US version, but you can no longer skip several sections via the firewheel and the boss battles have to be revisited with new strategies due to the lack of ninpo. It's fun! I would love to have a discussion about it with people that play NG3 (and would love to see people run it and had planned to come back to it myself in 2019), but in this thread I see a whole lot of names I don't recognize from NG3 boards.

If the NG1 moderators want the rules listed to be as identical as possible to NG1, transfer the existing runs into a new category with the rules that the runs were originally run with. If possible, alter the rules for "NG3 only" so that way existing runs aren't rejected. Then they can have their empty graveyard categories with NG1 rules and NG3 can also have categories with actual runs.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Uruguay
Twintail_Nami
She/Her, They/Them
5 years ago

Chill, man. People are trying to be reasonable with you and find a solution. You're new to the NES community. I'm not saying I'm a veteran and should have the right to say that, but you should stop being this aggressive, nobody likes that.

And yes, like Beerful, I agree in many things you said having inconsistent and "hidden" rules is a big mistake that should be avoided.

Overswarm likes this
Kentucky, USA

I don't mean to be aggressive, but I also don't plan to hold back and accept the status quo. Mods are not being consistent, even after multiple rule changes. From what I've seen there hasn't been much discussion about what should be, only justification for what is, and with the exception of my run being rejected rule changes have been made to allow existing runs. That rubs me the wrong way.

The first time this happened with the Pacifist run, Messi saw me running and noted that I seemed to be breaking the rules -- I told him the rules the actual category had, we noticed a disconnect, and he contacted the mods about the discrepancy. Garadas very kindly sent me a message telling me he was told that the rules were "always like that" and it was a mistake on the mods part. I told him a few suggestions for further rule changes to fit their intention and that was that. At the time I was unaware the mods he was talking to were mods of a different game, and I just dropped the pacifist run.

This is the second time NG1/2 mods have decided that the rules need to be changed based on my run, this time on a run already accepted and up for a month. The rules still aren't even up-to-date -- you can still pick up extra Lives in pacifist and Low%, and I'm sure someone else would be in the same situation I'm in when they use the extra lives for more health refills in a pacifist run. The "last minute rule change" shouldn't be a thing at all, let alone twice.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
California, USA

Until @beerfullofbelly mentioned it, I completely forgot I originally requested this category. Sorry for requesting it and never submitting anything, I got sidetracked learning other games. But I still think it justified existing, and I'll go back to it in the near future.

Overswarm likes this
Västra Götaland, Sweden

Alright, but do you see how picking up the sword upgrade does not make it low% anymore? It's like picking up the whip upgrades in castlevania

United States

Did SRC just restore from a backup or something? It seems like a ton of posts just got lost. Or is it me?

United States

Well at least they had us reset our passwords.

From what I remember there was the following discussion about versions.

v1 = no pickups, no ninpo usage v2 = pickups OK, accidental ninpo OK

My vote is for low% version 3: No pickups. Ninpo OK.

I have been trying all the different versions of low% that we have discussed and that is my favorite.

I'm not really sure why people dislike the idea of using the shuriken and default ninpo to kill an enemy or attack a boss in ng2 and ng3 low%. It still fits the idea of low% and makes it a lot more fun/flexible. People will start having "accidents" all the time anyways in version 2. V1 seems more popular EXCEPT for the ninpo usage prohibition. If that is the case, then you could always do a version where there is no pickups and only accidental usage allowed.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Illinois, USA

@color_theory I hear you, but using sub-weapons to kill things is not what Low% is really about. Low% basically means bare minimum. Using sub-weapons to kill things at all, even if its just the subweapon you start with, opens the door for too many interpretations and possible confusion.

Therefore, my vote is on Version 2.

It provides flexibility for the player but also keeps things more akin to what Low% should be.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
ShuriBear likes this
United States

Then why not the happy medium between 2 and 1?

enemy and boss kills are sword only. nothing can be picked up, and item sprites cannot be broken. expelling of sub weapons is fine as long as it doesn't aid the run in any way. e.g. RNG manipulation or the addition ninpo makes to the countdown timer in NG1

twin0mega likes this
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