Apartment Save
3 years ago

All playable parts should be in a run.

However leading up to the part where you walk behind brad feels like a playable cutscene which is annoying they went that way with it.

oujisan2236 likes this
Texas, USA

Just like Trance said. Don't screw up and you'll be fine! Lmao!

Belgium

Not down for a no intro run. This isnt even 5 minutes and so far the only reason i could kind of get behind was the injury one. By no means can i agree on a reason that says its either boring or practicly no timesave.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
South Africa

you know i could do the apartment on 1:22 but then doing it now at 1:12-1:09 so killing that section is kinda not realisitc eitherway.

id love to start the game from the train but i mean thats not really much time wasted in your day its like saying can i skip the final boss fight in inferno cause its hard as f

Chad

No it's not? How many times do you reset and do the apartment all over again and how many times do you reach final nemmy on inferno? That's a terrible comparison.

WhamBam_TV likes this
England

@Jadusable2 I should have clarified that it included people I have spoken to outside of this forum, not just the people who have posted here. 99.9% of stuff posted in the discord is ppl trying to get help with sections so dragging this on to that platform seemed pointless to me and would have just gotten drowned in chat. At least here ppl can follow the discussion point by point.

@oujisan2236 except the most common reset points are 8mins into the game (power station) or 14mins +- (sewers) not at the end of the run, then when we take power station into consideration if you’re having to reset here then u gotta go do a 4 and a half min intro again just so you can start your run again.

Boring isn’t the right word, tedious definitely is though, it’s like they took gas station and said you know what? Let’s make this whole section 3 times longer. At least in RE2R it was short and we got to shoot Frank in the face, can you honestly say this section is more than just W and your dodge key?

Let’s face it too, having a save where every runner could start on “WR Pace” definitely doesn’t mean they’re going to get it, so is the timesave here that ppl can get really all that valuable or worth the potential risks involved to achieve?

Washington, USA

@WhamBam_TV That isn't really a valid argument still. We don't know how many people you have spoken to. It could be two other people and you are counting it as "most runners". Saying "most runners agree with me" is kind of manipulative because people who don't know better will read that and think that is actually what the community thinks. We aren't going to remove part of the game simply because it's "tedious". Does it suck to get to power station to get trolled by drain deimos? Yes. But that is part of speedrunning. Resetting when you get to a higher level of play is going to happen, a lot.

Like Maxy said before, there is pretty big reason why Fallout 4 has an intro skip, because of how hard the ticks are to land that kill your run.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
California, USA

It's been twenty days, and you're running a Resident Evil game. If you think you weren't going to reset and have to do something tedious every time, you clearly have no idea what you got yourself into with this whole speedrunning thing.

giaNco and TrichaelMan like this
England

The only other RE game that has such an extended intro is RE7, granted that’s a lot longer but it is literally the only other game with such a over extended intro that I can think of.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
California, USA

No, no. My point is that speedrunning in itself is a tedious thing. You're doing the same things over and over. Just because I have to do the intro to RE4 that I always get the same time on, does that mean I should just skip it? No. Just because I have to sit through the first few unskippable cutscenes of Shenmue before doing the Out of Bounds in Dobuita, I should skip it? No. Just because I have to run all the way to town in Silent Hill 2 before anything interesting happens, does that mean I skip it? No. Just because I have to do the tutorial for Jet Set Radio every time before the main game starts, does that mean I skip it? No. Just because I have to play th-

These are all great examples of games that have something required in the beginning that may seem boring or tedious, but you just do them because that's the game, and there really aren't any extremely demanding things you have to do to complete these things.

Do you see how this speedrunning thing works? What were you expecting?

Edited by the author 3 years ago
TrichaelMan, rehab and 4 others like this
United Kingdom

RE1 HD stairskating is far more strenuous than in this game. Ideally, for optimal stairskating in that game, you're going to be wanting to mash as fast as possible, the faster you mash, the faster you go. This leads to people damaging their hands because although they can mash fast, their form/technique is poor and they're trying to push themselves too hard. People trying to hit a 15hz mash with poor technique is going to lead to those issues. That is nowhere near the case in this game.

That said, proposing an intro skip and then naming a single game (or a few) that do something similar isn't really a strong argument.

If anything it's likely to create more redundant categories, because Any percent and a theoretical Intro Skip run would be essentially identical, and the idea of forcing runners to skip a portion of the game to compete sounds about the silliest thing imaginable.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
TrichaelMan, Jadusable2 and 2 others like this
England

I don’t see speedrunning on a whole in that way, just this intro.

Those are all actually great examples of how differently we’re wired. Although I love Shenmue I don’t think I’d have the patience for it personally unless it could be skipped. It’s cool that you do though, but really I don’t see how it’s relevant to this discussion about this game. They are with all due respect different games with their own community.

Resident Evil though more often than not you’re thrown right into the mix, you don’t even see any real action in this until 5 mins in after you’re opening the shutter. The extra zombies that are in nightmare/inferno are an absolute joke, the extra aggression ironically makes them easier to avoid and if you’re playing inferno you must have the skill set required to dodge zombies or you wouldn’t even be trying it’s basically a tutorial. One that no one needs, but is forced to play. While the other RE game with a long unnecessary intro ironically has a no intro cat, regardless of whether it is a meme or not. Since the meme itself is entirely perspective, I mean who’s really to say that people doing the intro aren’t playing the meme category. I would certainly view it as such.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
United Kingdom

Well, partly, what is the real reason for proposing this to begin with? As there is now mixed signals in these messages.

Initially it was due to player's health issues with RSI / mashing, and now it's changed to playing essentially a section of the game that could be attributed as a 'tutorial'.

Like it or not, the introduction is a part of the game. Unless people can provide a stronger argument than "it's causing personal health issues" or "it's easy/boring", I don't know how anyone can expect moderators to consider such a massive change with those as the entire basis.

Imperg, Jakeeenator and 4 others like this
United States

Here’s what I’m seeing right now as reasons being given to skip the intro:

1: Health Hazard. 2: It’s boring. 3: Because other games do it. (Not directly a reason being given but kind of with all the comparisons) 4: The community wants it.

So I’ll tackle these:

1: Speedrunning is inherently anti-ergonomic. No matter what precautions you take you will always be performing a repetitive motion. You can always re-bind your keys to help deal with some of the discomfort that you may feel but ultimately there will always be an issue. Another thing that can be done prior to running is stretching your hands and fingers to make sure they’re loose. In case this isn’t coming across right, since this is the internet and you can’t see intent, I’m not being sarcastic or mocking. These are legit suggestions that will help.

The specific trick in these opening minutes of the game requires a few seconds of “mashing” on the 3 stairs you go down. If approximately 10-12 seconds of “mashing” has you feeling that much pain in your hands, I don’t know how you’re going to make it to the end of a run that’s 45-70 minutes long depending on your skill. Being that worried about future injury IMO means you should maybe have a sit down with yourself and figure out if speedrunning is worth it because holding your hands on your keyboard for that long without the opening sequence is just as bad for you tbh.

A couple years ago I got in a car accident that messed up my right hand. I am very susceptible to having “outbreaks” with tendonitis because of this accident. The topic of hand health is one I am very aware of. If this few seconds of the game is giving you a physical issue then don’t do the trick. If you’re not a WR contender, be happy with where you are on the leaderboard knowing that you have the time you’ve got without doing the trick. If you are trying for WR, decide how important those couple of seconds you can save are to you and again either choose that they are important enough to risk it or that they’re not. Having a hand injury like mine, I decide what’s important to me. Sometimes I do the tricks, sometimes I don’t. It’s never kept me from a WR I wanted or a personal goal I’ve set for a PB because I manage the strain I put on myself.

2: This is a terribly weak argument. It actually makes the first argument null and void if anyone is going this route. Is it too much for a persons hands to handle or is it too boring? “All you do is hold W!” Well it’s not exactly true you move your camera, use the dodge button, and skip cutscenes too but if you want to call it that then... thats 90% of the game, so should we skip anything that isn’t a boss fight? This is a playable part of the game that requires you to understand the way movement works to optimally get through it. Is it the most exciting thing you’ve ever done, hell no, but is 4 minutes of playable game time something we should drop because it isn’t? No.

3: Not really relevant if it’s not a major issue, but let’s look at it since it’s here. Other games have more concrete reasons to skip their openings. Sunshine had 5 minutes or so of unskippable cutscenes. Fallout 4, that’s been explained already in better detail than I could give. RE7’s, since it was mentioned, was because the guest house is 15 minutes with 7 minutes of actual gameplay and 8 minutes of unskippable cutscenes. We have 4 minutes of playable time that may not make or break your run, but it’s not even close to the reasons other games skip their intros.

4: So far, the community is not saying they want it. There are a couple folks on here in favor of it, but that’s it. There are more comments from people saying they don’t want it or that it doesn’t interest them. There are more likes on posts that are giving reasons against it than there are on posts for it. If you have people you’ve been talking to elsewhere, tell them to come here and comment or like your posts at the very least because if they are not saying something in the place it’s being discussed then they don’t exist in the conversation. Anyone can say “I’ve been talking to other people that agree” but you need them to show up and actually agree so their voice can be heard.

giaNco, TrichaelMan and 5 others like this
South Africa

im in favor from starting the begining as boring as it is...as a speedrun there is a Timmer locked into it its prob meer seconds but still a timmer on it

Ontario, Canada

I hate resetting cause this games start is boring af but its part of the game and removing it for another random category just seems ridiculous and the hand hurting thing seems disingenuous from most people (unless u are competing for WR its not even needed). As for the boring... Waiting for Carlos when getting back to 2nd Subway section is boring too, so is waiting on every radio call. So is Carlos defend Jill section. So maybe its more of people thinking the whole games boring but using the beginning as an excuse. Anyways @zgl really summed it up nicely and I don't see how anyone can really argue with the points.

(I can maybe see an argument if there was a mod made in the future that removed all the boring walking sections out and it was different enough to give its own category)

England
  1. I don’t see it as mocking, I appreciate sharing advice on how to help manage this for anyone that may be struggling. I didn’t feel a lot of strain, I felt some due to it very slightly aggravating an old injury, but this was enough to of course alert me to the possibility. The rest of my run I felt fine, it’s the action of repetitive tapping where the strain was being caused, this because when you press a key down it requires a certain amount of pressure, that is then returned back through your finger by both a tiny vibration shockwave from the key hitting the sensor and the key pushing back against your finger with near enough the same amount of pressure you used to press it down. When this action is repeated, albeit for only like 10seconds since it is done with only 1 finger it causes more strain than anything else in this game.

While it is fair to suggest to not do these tricks if repetitive use of them is causing injury, it is also unfair to alienate these people from being able to achieve a WR. Sure right now there is still plenty of time save left in this game that the few seconds you save aren’t going to be relevant but my point has been from the start that this will soon not be the case. The boards already seem to be swapping places for seconds.

  1. I dislike the use of boring, I find tedious to be more accurate. Actually the tedious nature of the intro can support the argument. Sure it might come across as petty at first glance, but when you think about how doing something tedious is also frustrating the relevance becomes more apparent. When frustrated you’re going to be tense, pressure applied to inputs can increase as well as your technique can change. All of these things are going to increase the risk of injuring yourself. While it may be on the player to stop and recognise this, a healthy player without any previous injury isn’t going to notice until they feel some pain by then it’s normally too late. Speaking from my own personal experience, when I injured my left hand at work I literally did not notice what I was doing to myself and when the pain came through that was it, my finger would just ache, tense up then lock itself up. This ended up with me having to see a physio, I still have the stuff to this day that I need to use periodically.

  2. From what I can gather No Intro on RE7 was created because it’s long and boring? I mean unless you can explain better than just because it has 8mins of cutscenes 7 mins of gameplay that is just how the point is coming across. The reason I bought up RE7 is because of this, it shows that no intro categories can be popular while at least being an RE game. While I feel my reasoning for skipping this games intro is actually relevant towards creating a platform where players with a previous injury, like ourselves, can compete at the highest level without having to bleed seconds in the intro simply because we are essentially operating under a handicap. While I can admire your perseverance with your own injury and the limitations it has put on you in your achievements I’m sure that there must have been times where it has prevented you from taking a top spot and it is of course no fault of your own. So I ask you why must we continue to put those at risk of aggravating injuries in a game that outside of the intro, has virtually none. Practicing boss fights for hours on end doing the same movement is far more relaxing than the intro movement.

  3. Fair point, there’s not really anything to respond to here accept to acknowledge it so I’ll just leave it at that.

I appreciate the detailed post as it helps me better understand your reasoning behind why you don’t want to currently create this category.

P.S. @Liv About people being forced to run an intro skip category, that is not the case, no one would have to run it if they didn’t want to. It’s about creating a platform where people can compete not that they have to.

Florida, USA

Whatever you guys end up doing with this, you need to consider how you're going to distribute a save that works for Steam. RE7 and RE2 (and I highly suspect RE3 as well) do not allow save sharing. My saves simply will not show up for you, and vice versa.

I'm neither for or against it. I could see why people would want to skip it, but coming from RE7 running, I don't see 4 minutes nearly as big of a deal as a literal walking on rails sim for 15 minutes (with like a 3 minute unskippable cutscene before you even control Ethan for the first time)

If you did figure it out though, let me know. Would be great to allow NGH in RE7 to be a category for Steam runners that don't have Cero D. Even if that category is considered a meme, if more runners could skip all that BS, I feel like more runners would run RE7.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
giaNco likes this
England

@CursedToast From what I could see, the saves for RE are all in one file, in contrast to other games that would normally create separate save files. So my understanding of that would lead me to conclude that this would need to be overwritten/replaced with a file in which this save would exist. This would of course wipe any saves you already have.

I don’t know though if this file is locked to your steam ID. But when I have loaded a save file in a different game from a different steam id all I got was a warning that it was a file from another computer (though this could easily not be the case for RE7/3R).

What exactly is Cero D and what is it doing? I tried to google it but all I could see was stuff relating to the Computer Entertainment Rating Organization.

England

Nvm, I managed to find a video by zgl that talked about it, so save sharing is locked out because of rating? Seems like a strange reason for save files to not be shareable.