There's nothing to address, you're just... Making a mountain out of a molehill.
Yeah wait what concerns to we have that you need to address lol.
You're the one who seems to have some strange concerns here.
So, just a thought, who thinks this could be DoctorWoot?
"Semantic_Policeman" ¤wall of text about something stupid¤
I'm not really sure what I was expecting.
Open Letter To This Guy: Piss off.
wait what concerns to we have that you need to address Well, a number of people still seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying, and why. So I think it's worthwhile to summarize my position, in my own words:
Speedrunners make themselves and their community look bad when they call normal play 'casual' during marathon events. The problem with 'casual' is that it is a poor word choice, for the following reasons: casualness is not a defining factor of the type of run speedrunners define as 'casual', which makes it a flawed descriptor of the run, and which is also inconsistent with the naming of other types of runs; casualness is a condition which is neither necessarily related, nor exclusive, to so-called 'casual' runs (or any other run, for that matter), so it doesn't make sense why speedrunners select it in the first place, and it's also unclear why they choose that word as opposed to any other equally unrelated word; 'casual' also happens to be a known insult within the broader gaming community, so it's possible some might mistake or misconstrue speedrunners as using it in that manner. I'm not pointing all of this out to insult anyone - I like speedrunners and I wish the best for them - I'm merely bringing this information to your attention, that you may do with it as you please.
What one defines as 'Normal' is also totally subjective, so its funny you criticize people for apparent misuse of a term, when it seems you think speedrunning a game isn't "normal"? I agree that's true in general, but if you look at gaming in aggregate - undoubtedly, most gamers play most games most of the time with no particular non-standard goal or restriction in mind. This is the most common, default type of run; this is the norm. And this is what you guys refer to as 'casual', is it not?
By the opposite side of the same coin, by the way, speedrunning may indeed be viewed as abnormal. And that's not in any way a negative thing, obviously. I think of speedrunning as a type of 'specialist' or 'enthusiast' run, personally - along with all other types of non-standard, abnormal runs.
That's because you were reading casually.
You should try speedreading sometime, it's right up your alley.
What wall of text? There were three paragraphs. And actually, they were very concise. Their length, incidentally, is due to the complexity of the subject matter. If you think you could strip it down any further, without omitting key details, I'd like to see you try. Why don't you explain your allegations, instead of just complaining and insulting me? Frankly, your entire response is worthless and unnecessary.
Look, you guys can hate on me all you want, but please don't condemn what I have to say without investigating it. One day and hundreds of views later, all attempts at debunking my main points have failed. If no one can refute my arguments, maybe it's time to admit they're true. For it would be pretty immature of an entire community to stubbornly insist on clinging to a demonstrably inappropriate term for no good reason.
If you guys don't care or don't want to change, that's your prerogative. I'm not here to force my view on any of you, however correct it may be.
So you want to see how it would look like summerized?
Speedrunners shouldn't use the word "casual" for describing normal playthroughs since it's not kewl and people might get offended/discouraged. <<
If you haven't noticed, you're on the Internet here. EVERY FUCKING IDIOT get's offended or cries over some little shit ALL THE TIME. We don't call them "filthy amateurs" or "noobs" or whatever, it's not harmful at all. If you're simply butthurt because someone is referring to you/viewers as casuals than simply don't watch.
Speedrun Marathons like GDQ may even concern that, but then this is simply the wrong Forum/Site. For some marathons it's about the donations and views, some about the people and community behind it. Saying that ALL marathons should focus on donations/butthurt viewers is just plain wrong and that's the end for me.
"One day and hundreds of views later, all attempts at debunking my main points have failed. If no one can refute my arguments, maybe it's time to admit they're true."
oh god shut up what are you, battleonfan?
You're getting a negative reaction because the main body of your argument is, funnily enough, pointlessly semantic and practically meaningless. The reason you say anything or develop any kind of terminology, is to communicate clearly. It's pretty well-understood in the community what "casual" means in the context of speedruns and speedrun viewers, there's absolutely no reason to change this because the word itself upsets you or something. Language does what it will do, because people understand it, you aren't changing shit by being annoying in a forum, nobody ever changed language by pointing their nose up in the air and saying that it isn't "proper".
I never even used "casual" to refer to "any other way of playing a game that isn't speedrunning". Why would you think that other types of self-imposed challenges are part of the definition "casual"? When I use the word "casual" when talking about gaming, I'm referring to "playing a game purely for fun without any type of challenge in mind". And no, I don't think that "casual" is the wrong term for that.
Succinct and andy hit the nail on the head.
Our use of the word is all about context and gaming's relation to speedrunning.
You're taking the word out of context, giving it a meaning that you yourself think is negative, and then trying to shove that out of context interpretation down everyone's throat. Also your constant condescending tone is becoming insufferable.
The recent replies have been pretty good, so thanks for taking this a bit more seriously, guys. Here's my response to those. Please excuse me for not replying to each of you by name, this is just the most efficient way I know.
Speedrunners shouldn't use the word "casual" for describing normal playthroughs since it's not kewl and people might get offended/discouraged This strawman version of my argument is wrong because it ignores the most important aspect: 'casual' is simply not the right word; it is invalid, linguistically.
EVERY FUCKING IDIOT get's offended or cries over some little shit ALL THE TIME If you're simply butthurt because someone is referring to you/viewers as casuals than simply don't watch. Why would anyone be able to refute your points? It's a subjective discussion. Your views VS someone else's views. No one is correct. Again, this isn't about that; I'm not just some triggered SJW. I can see the similarities, of course, hence my self-deprecating user name, but just because what I'm doing resembles that doesn't mean it's the same thing. For example, maybe it's true that my position could be boiled down to, "the speedrunning community's conception of 'casual' is a social construct of that community," but my objection isn't on behalf of some allegedly oppressed minority group, nor is it rooted in feelings or a desire to virtue signal; my position is based on objectivity, facts and empirical evidence (the dictionary), my objection is purely for the sake of linguistic - not political - correctness. I have no ideological agenda, no horse in this race.
Speedrun Marathons like GDQ may even concern that, but then this is simply the wrong Forum/Site. Call me casual but I Startpaged 'speedrunning' and clicked the first link, speedrun.com. Not that I didn't look around at other sites, but as far as I can tell this site seems to be the main hub for speedrunners on the internet.
Saying that ALL marathons should focus on donations/butthurt viewers is just plain wrong and that's the end for me. I never said, am not saying and don't even think that.
You're getting a negative reaction because the main body of your argument is, funnily enough, pointlessly semantic and practically meaningless. Is that really, really why the response has been the way it has? I'm sure there are other factors at play and it's not that simple. Anyway, I fully admit this is all a minor quip, but that's not an argument against it; that doesn't mean it is invalid.
The reason you say anything or develop any kind of terminology, is to communicate clearly. Yeah and that's precisely what speedrunners aren't doing when they say 'casual'. Again, they are describing an activity by one of many possible approaches to doing it. How does this make any sense? How is this consistent with the way they - and perhaps everyone, in general - describe other activities - after the defining characteristic of the activities themselves (speed run, score run, etc)? How is what they define as casual consistent with the actual meaning of the word (which BTW is pasted below, for convenience, in case anyone's wondering)?
It's pretty well-understood in the community what "casual" means in the context of speedruns and speedrun viewers, there's absolutely no reason to change this because the word itself upsets you or something. It doesn't upset me - except slightly, and only in the sense that it's literally wrong - and I do understand - as well as possible considering its inherent ambiguity as a title - what the community thinks it means. I'm just saying - well, just that: it's wrong, and ambiguous, and flawed and you may want to consider using a more precise term instead.
Language does what it will do, because people understand it, you aren't changing shit by being annoying in a forum. By using the wrong term, you're actively impeding language from functioning properly, particularly when you do so in front of a large audience. I have made clear my respect and appreciation for speedrunners, and my good-faith good intentions. If I really didn't like or didn't care about speedrunning, I wouldn't waste my time doing this. I'm truly sorry if that annoys some of you, and I can understand why it might, but I hope you can likewise understand it's not really my fault if it does. Granted, I started the discussion, but honestly, so what? Open discussion is how people in civilized societies solve problems and advance their ideals, right?
Why would you think that other types of self-imposed challenges are part of the definition "casual"? Because, like I said, 'casual' is such a poor word choice, for so many different reasons which I already articulated in great detail multiple times.
When I use the word "casual" when talking about gaming, I'm referring to "playing a game purely for fun without any type of challenge in mind". And no, I don't think that "casual" is the wrong term for that. 'Casual', from Merriam-Webster:
- subject to, resulting from, or occurring by chance <a casual meeting>
- a: occurring without regularity: occasional <casual employment> b: employed for irregular periods <a casual worker> c: met with on occasion and known only superficially <a casual friend>
- a(1): feeling or showing little concern: nonchalant <a casual approach to cooking> a(2): lacking a high degree of interest or devotion <casual sports fans> <casual readers> a(3): done without serious intent or commitment <casual sex> b(1): informal, natural <a casual conversation> b(2): designed for informal use <casual clothing> I can see how what you're referring to may meet some of those criteria, in certain ways, some of the time. Still, why not say 'leisurely', 'normally,' 'traditionally', or 'standardly' instead? For they are all much more fitting, overall.
You're taking the word out of context, giving it a meaning that you yourself think is negative, and then trying to shove that out of context interpretation down everyone's throat. Also your constant condescending tone is becoming insufferable. No, you speedrunners are taking the word out of the context of its actual definition, twisting its meaning and assigning it a gerrymandered one which you shove down a hundred thousand viewers' throats bi-annually. I don't think the meaning you assign to it is negative per se, I just think it is incorrect. I'm sorry, but I'm tired of getting nothing back but memes and mockery for bringing this up. You don't have to like it, or me, but I'm urging you to at least think about it. I've specifically stated I'm not here to force this on you guys. Believe me, I'm not going to push the issue beyond the extent to which people are willing to seriously discuss it; while I may not agree that you should, if no one wants to do that then I am prepared to leave it at that. As I said, I have no horse in this race; you guys are the ones who will have to live with the outcome.
And obviously, if anyone can prove me wrong I'll be perfectly happy to shut the hell up and go away.
"I'm sorry, but I'm tired of getting nothing back but memes and mockery for bringing this up."
Ask a stupid question....