Counting frame in would be as easy/hard as counting frame out, just makes reattempts faster so seems fine to me.

I never cared enough to bring this up officially either (and now I'm planning on going hardware I wish I did ages ago haha). In the same vein, should emulator players be able to just start game runs from a save state at main menu? That's allowed on the SNES board, nothing has ever been shown that it can alter runs in anyway. I believe when it was first brought in (reading old posts) it was to make the game more 'professional looking'. Saying that we all know how the game looks and random players really only watch WR's. My proposal for that change would be to get rid of the 'must start from hard reset' rule entirely and merely mention that if you believe your going to be attempting WR runs to 'recommend' a full game lead in.

hi dick, soft reset actually resets any RNG that can be seeded and preserved from a save state. :) that's why it's a rule on other genesis boards. i'm in favor of keeping that one as a rule, and i'm saying this as someone who once had a run rejected for not doing it LOL

i would like to tag @8BitsOfJoy into this for contribution as he was the former moderator who added this rule, but i'm in full agreement with it existing as obnoxious and time wasting as it is

@EIGHT currently in the IL boards specifically, a runner is allowed to create a save state for IL's. This rule was implemented the day the IL's went up. I'm in favor of keeping the "Run begins from pressing start" rule, simply because this makes it easier on the runner to have a solid starting point.

Here is a copy of the IL specific rules in case you need to review them:

[quote]Level select is required for this run. To get to level select, go to the "OPTIONS" menu and press these buttons in sequence:

"RIGHT, A, A, B, START". Please make sure you have the difficulty level "EASY" selected within the OPTIONS menu after you've made your level selection.

You can use a save state to load to the title screen.

Complete the level from start to finish.[/quote]

thanks insom, those rules have always been crystal clear to me. :) maybe i made an error in conveying my overall point here.

it takes 18s from the moment you hit the reset button to the moment you gain control of Simba after Timon says "It Starts." more time is added based on the time each person takes to input the code and load up the level, so we're probably looking at around 22-23s per reset. personally i found it incredibly discouraging to do IL attempts having to wait that length of time each time. not to get all new age guru here, but time is the one finite resource we have. time wasted waiting for the IL to reset could be spent improving at the run.

i hear you that timing is easier your way and it makes a lot of sense to me due to its user friendly nature, but i'm presenting a counterpoint as somebody who got frustrated pretty quickly and gave up on recording ILs altogether because of it. i'm totally willing to just avoid ILs altogether; i have no intention of setting up camp and dying on this hill. i just know i'm not the only one who would be inclined to participate in the IL board more were the timing rules relaxed :)

i'm gonna talk a bit more about @PlayingWithDick 's suggestion to allow runs to start from a save state some more in this separate post

1. you'd be using a feature that isn't available on real hardware
2. it's a set, predetermined state, so if timers are possibly based off of things that have to do with power up time, etc, it'd be the same every time
3. enforcing the soft reset rule makes sure this doesn't happen

dick, your argument is exactly the same as my argument; neither of us want to waste time. i hate arguing against it on principle and i really wish i was in your camp here. when @8BitsOfJoy implemented the soft reset rule i threw a fit and embarrassed myself to veteran non-LK runners who basically told me i was a clown and explained why that rule is a Good Thing. i don't want to seem like i'm being a know it all here, i just want to convey the information properly so it's understood :)

The reset rule is very common across the site and its for the reasons that EiGhT states here. Although I'm not aware of any global-based timers that control RNG in this game, there is always the possibility that it exists. Heck, maybe all of you are already aware of such RNG, and I'm stuck in the past haha. More importantly though (in my opinion), saves states create a distinct advantage that was never present in the original game.

If there were ever a desire by the community to re-write the rules, I won't stand in the way, but I do think this is actually a pretty important rule.

On a separate note, I may be dumb and missing something as far as the IL discussion goes. If saves states are allowed there, are we discussing a change to the starting point? (please excuse me im a little exhausted today)

All good, it was never a big issue just one of those little annoyances I thought I'd bring up some time. Saying that while doing IL with save states (or even in lvl Saves) I never had a consistent RNG regarding vultures/leopards/be prepared etc. To my knowledge the only RNG is with the leopards tie out rate? (actually interested if there's other things) everything else seems to be controlled by Simba's positioning. I believe there are no global timed based RNG in this game. But it's not an issue worth perusing for me so let's just keep the soft reset rule.

In regard to the main thread topic, IL under the same principles save states at all would technically be disallowed but that would basically make them unplayable haha. To get a perfect run can take a hundred resets so I can't see any body doing full resets - cheat menu - restart on each attempt. So accepting we ignore that, I believe the main question is simply should we start the timer WAIT WAIT WAIT... I just realized the confusion here.

What @EIGHT is proposing is only 1.8 seconds faster than the current rule. She didn't realize we already where starting from save states? Which is why insom pointed out the rules that state "You can use a save state to load to the title screen". I thought you just wanted to save the extra 1.8s which is why I didn't think it was a big deal either way and I thought that was the reason Insoms response didn't make sense.

So for clarity - The current rule is... Go into the cheat menu, select your lvl, now your at the main menu. Create a Save State. Press Go + Split at same time.

Unless I also have just misunderstood everything.

yep, as we just discussed in pm, i didn't realize it was allowed to make a save state there haha i definitely don't care about watching timon, i've watched him thousands of times as it is.

looks like we're on the same page! knowing this info, i have no concerns and no desire to change the timing :P

Yeah that's how I understood the rules for ILs. Also, I have no issue with save states for them since it's kind of a special circumstance. Like you said, it's almost like allowing saves states makes the ILs runnable in the first place.

I don't really do individual levels myself, so I feel like I don't have too much of an opinion here. If it makes things easier for everyone who does to get the IL runs done though, I'm all for it. Hopefully someone else who does ILs chimes in here.