Hey all. :)
I looked at some stuff for Skunky (and myself) in TAS the other day, and it's possible you can manipulate the technodrome from power on/reset. Here's a video demonstrating it:
Let the game power on and go into demo mode (reset works as well). As Leonardo slashes his sword upward, push select to exit out of demo mode and then start very quickly after. The window to do this is either 2 frames, or frame perfect, but it makes me believe there's 2 frames on console (maybe frame perfect on emulator due to latency).
Why it makes me believe so is this picture, here:
Whenever I hit it on emulator, the health spawns on the overworld like that (pictured below). On console, it's slightly different (pictured above), but it's possible there's a couple frames (as I didn't test frame data exactly) BUT you can use the health to determine whether or not you probably got the good spawn. 3/4 spawns block it out more toward the beginning of the bar.
I don't play this game at all, and can't run it, so hopefully some people can maybe help, but in terms of PB videos (red recently set a PB using this method) please check the health at the beginning of the game to see where the squares line up. I did check the enemy midbosses (like the toad/chainsaw guy you fight in the sewer) but they seem to be random and not related at all to the technodrome spawn location. If the health bar thing isn't a good visual/too random between players, maybe there's some other visual you can tell ahead of time before getting to the actual technodrome to see whether or not it's there.
[edit]: To better clarify, on emulator when I hit this the frame the turtle can move the 6th/7th health block is missing.
On console (I use an RetroUSB AVS so timing might be different) the 5th/6th health block is missing on the same frame I can move. I can repeat this on emulator/console and would be interested in how the health looks like to other runners who hit the technodrome spawn using this method.
More testing is needed there, though.
So this is what I've come up with so far in relation to the health bar vs Technodrome spawn. Screenshots were captured from gameplay recorded on console. I used VLC frame advance to get to the first frame where the health bar is red. If there is a better way that I should be doing this let me know.
There are 2 good spawns and one bad spawn at the link below. Each screenshot has a different bar missing. It doesn't mean that there is no correlation, I just think more runs need to be done to compare against before a verdict is made. If anyone else has screenshots, feel free to post them.
Thank you again Dave for investigating this!
Thanks Red for checking. :D
I'll check in TAS later to see if the health ever fluctuates, but yeah, a good starting point (as I'll have to leave again pretty soon after this response) is if people get the good Technodrome spawn, maybe first frame the health bar becomes visible to see where the missing block is (if it's missing) because that removes the variable that someone might accidentally not move on the first available frame. I've seen the 5th block missing many many times hitting it on console and emulator, but I'll again check exact frames to see the variance of this manipulation and again, what it does to the healthbar when I get back home later tonight. :)
So maybe there's a specific frame hitting select + start after Leonardo slashes his sword that creates the 5th health block to be missing (and a frame later, the 6th). Anyway, I'll check for sure once I get home. I need to leave again soon, but yeah, hopefully this ends up being a thing.
More information as I know it:
You have 3 frames of Leonardo's sword animation to hit the 2nd spawning technodrome, as seen here:
After that select input, the start input has to come 3 frames later.
The other bad animation gives you a 4 spawn.
Originally thought the health bar and how it filled up was based on the cycle you hit, but I think now it initializes the same as it functioned the same between console/emulator.
So, we look for other visuals corresponding with a successful input.
- Boss behavior?
- Enemy RNG?
- Enemy placement (probably isn't a thing - tested to see and enemies inside a room all spawn on the same pixel regardless of technodrome RNG.)
- ?
Ended up a little below 50% overall last night. I plan on practicing this method using the Technodrome spawn rom hack to see if I can get consistent with it. Assuming that all the data is correct and carries over to the real cart, I think this is something that we'll have to get good at timing properly and it'll produce good results. Further testing needed, but it's looking hopeful at this point.
Maybe the lifebar tell is a thing, but I uploaded an unlisted video here and visually it's just too hard to tell to the human eye:
The first 3 frames after the health bar becomes red (frame by frame) show once the health bar is red, hitting the 2 spawn always initializes and counts up from the 2nd block which is missing. Coincidentally checking two of Skunky's runs yesterday where he hit the technodrome spawn on console (also checked on my AVS) the health bar loads in the same way. I'll check later if from a 3/4 spawning technodrome how the health bar fills up and if the 2nd block is missing.
The first section in that video is frame by frame what it looks like, as each health block stays on the screen for 2 frames. The second section is the video repeated in RTA/real time just to visually show how it loads, but again, I feel this goes by too quickly to see. Can anyone see anything?
Sadly, as I wrote in your chat a couple times yesterday, my internal knowledge of this game is limited just because I don't run this game (although with all the shit I keep testing out I can do the first split in about 1:40 now :D).
As I wrote also in your chat, it might be a good idea IF the health bar initializes this specific way upon hitting a good technodrome seed to re-route the beginning movement until you enter the first sewer in a very very consistent way, and line up what the health bar looks like upon entering the sewer. IF the health bar loads and it's always missing for example the 2nd block on the third frame after hitting the proper seed, walking to the sewer in a predictable way where say for example, the 7th health block is always missing (where as on spawns 3/4 it might be a different block) could be a visual tell 20 seconds in whether or not you hit the proper technodrome spawn.
I don't know visually what else could be used in the very beginning of the game because watching you run this yesterday, there isn't a lot of variation. Enemies (I checked) for sure spawn on the same pixel regardless of technodrome spawn, so there's no variation there.
Actual enemy spawns have less to do with RNG and more to do with a kill count or something it seems, so it probably isn't useful in any kind of visual tell, as for example your act 1 is obviously very clean and I never saw a toad miniboss once yesterday - only the chainsaw dude spawned. The spider/crawly things on the ceiling, where there's 3 before that mini boss fight, the third always jumped down a bit and the other 2 always did the same thing. So whether it's a combination of pace/global/kill count, I don't think there's anything there that relates to the technodrome being on a good seed as even on failed runs your act 1 looked the same.
- There IS variation in the AI of Bebop in that boss fight - but, why and what causes it? I have no idea.
- RNG happens with the boomerang guy right before the Rocksteady fight - again, why?
- Not sure what else in act 1 that I noticed?
Alright, so this is nightmare fuel. I think this game just doesn't want people to run it. xD
Anyway, better checked out exact odds and I'll keep updating as I go along, but I checked other frames around Leonardo's sword and there's 2 in particular that are probably more important than before, as seen here:
As his sword is ascending pushing select on either of those frames (which is useful - because there's only 2 frames of animation) results in the first part of the technodrome being set to location 2. So, good news is you have 100% chance from this point. Bad news is the 2nd part which is the start button press, depending on the frame pressed I checked the first 6 frames is where the technodrome spawns in relation:
700: 1st frame = 3rd spawn. 2nd frame = 3rd spawn. 3rd frame = 2nd spawn. 4th frame = 3rd spawn. 5th frame = 3rd spawn. 6th frame = 3rd spawn.
701: 1st frame = 4th spawn. 2nd frame = 2nd spawn. 3rd frame = 3rd spawn. 4th frame = 2nd spawn. 5th frame = 2nd spawn. 6th frame = 3rd spawn.
So that's good (above) if you can time it on the 2nd frame of animation anyway.
Below is the other frames for reference:
705: 1st frame = 4th spawn. 2nd frame = 2nd spawn. 3rd frame = 3rd spawn. 4th frame = 2nd spawn. 5th frame = 3rd spawn.
706: 1st frame = 4th spawn. 2nd frame = 4th spawn. 3rd frame = 2nd spawn. 4th frame = 4th spawn. 5th frame = 3rd spawn.
Let's Play "Guess the Correct Start Button Press"
Below is a link to an album of 6 different start button presses lined up beside each other taken from videos of console gameplay. There are 5 images, with each image corresponding to the next frame of each video. Guess which one gave me the best Technodrome spawn. I'll give you the answer once I get another good Technodrome press.
Is this useful to anyone? Maybe not, but wanted to have a little fun. I'm losing my mind over this crap and I'm starting to do dumb things like this.
Edit: Looking at it again, I can't even tell LUL
Edit 2: Top right #3
I've already expressed multiple times on stream and in general it's FCEUX, but I guess failed somehow to mention it here.
Anyway, FCEUX, and I think (assume) the frames match up on console.
One thing I checked (also scumtron pointed out) is you have a double buffer input window from power on. The first buffer input is immediate and perfect, the second requires tight timing. So basically, I wanted to check if you could (RTA) double buffer frame perfect two inputs to immediately go into the game from power on, what spawn you'd get, just in case it was that easy. Sadly, it's not.
You get techndrome spawning in 4. xD
But, in terms of the buffer window: you can power on, hold select and buffer into start by rolling your thumb from select to start. The window itself is very tight because otherwise the game expects/wants a start button press to register, but if you're fast enough you can double buffer (just hold start) into that window from the copyright screen and immediately start the game by buffering that input. Testing this buffering on console, it also produced spawn 4.
Whether they match perfectly, no idea, can't obviously test that to the frame on console.
One other note:
There's a bank (scumtron) pointed out where they pull the RNG value that fluctuates from, which is 4, 3, 2 and then 4.
So easy math: The RNG number that repeats itself has a 75% chance of giving you the bad technodrome spawn between 3/4 locations and obviously a 25% chance for the best technodrome spawn according to the route. I don't know how the RNG populates itself, other than it initializes on reset/power, but mapping that out individually through setting breakpoints would be awful.
In terms of frame 700 and pushing select there, followed by a start push:
700: 1st frame = 3rd spawn. 2nd frame = 3rd spawn. 3rd frame = 2nd spawn. 4th frame = 3rd spawn. 5th frame = 3rd spawn. 6th frame = 3rd spawn.
^ This is basically the only hope for TMNT at this point if you want to continue this visual route, but luck out substantially and hope there's a pocket of randomly generated frames like this that contain 2 spawns.
I kind of mentioned to red the other day, but if you guys have specific suggestions as to when to time it, I'll happily check the first 5-10 frames to see what kind of RNG the start button press produces. At this point, finding something reliable isn't impossible, but more so needle in haystack territory if you want to include a visual cue that you time to a specific frame from power on/reset.
I have no clue sir. :D
[edit]:
A request/feedback:
Where on the start menu does it feel comfortable timing select + start? I'd like legitimate feedback on that because I don't run this game, but if something feels very comfortable with the demo mode to time, maybe I can start there and check out what kind of spawns it produces.
Also, I'll set a breakpoint later to the fluctuating RNG and freeze it, then check spawns 2/3/4 respectively and how it alters Bebop's behavior (if it even does). It would rule out that case if Bebop always had the same kind of AI then that his AI has to deal with where the technodrome spawns. If he has different AI between technodrome spawns and the same (frozen) RNG value, then maybe how he acts when you get there on a spawn 2 could be a visual indicator of spawn 2.
Otherwise Bebop's AI is probably determined by the RNG itself as it's the only real thing that fluctuates in stage 1 (minus Rocksteady, maybe? Not aware of how he spawns.) It boggles my mind that they would go to such a length to code this massive RNG-fest to overly complicate where the technodrome spawns and ONLY use it for the technodrome.
For visual cues, I liked it when I could look at when the weapon swing is outside the box during the demo reel. That seemed the easiest to notice for me. Unfortunately I think Leo and Don are the only ones that have a noticeable weapon swing outside the box.
One thing I've noticed the past few days when pressing select/start on Leo's weapon animation like in my 17:02 run: Bebop and Rocksteady's movement may indicate a Cave 1 Technodrome. When Bebop hangs around you and punches and Rocksteady is constantly charging you and jumping (See my 17:02 video for a visual) I seem to have a good shot at a Cave 1 spawn. Now this isn't the only pattern that gives Technodrome, but when I see this, I seem to get Technodrome in the 1st cave more often than not. Again, this isn't 100% tested as of yet, It's just what I've noticed lately. I'll be interested to know if others have similar success with those boss patterns.
So I read this thread after watching Arcus play TMNT for fresh five day.
I program games as a hobby and from looking at what you guys are discovering, it looks like you should be able to predict the technodrome spawn if
A) the randomized seed is used for other things B) you see those other things during normal gameplay C) this seed doesn't change during gameplay*
An example would be Redheaded's Bebop/Rocksteady having their AI manipulated by the random seed. This should be easy enough to check by creating a save state post-spawn (after the seed is set), then moving through the game and re-checking the things you think are set by that seed.
This could be things like enemy spawns, drops, etc., etc. You could find things like "oh, if this enemy drops a single ninja star it is the bad star" as a consistent thing. You'd just need to play through twice, know what the randomized seed is set to, and then see what lines up as consistent.
You'd need to do things consistently between the two playthroughs to guarantee it just in case things altered by the seed could also be altered by something else.
*It is possible this seed DOES change during gameplay -- specifically, using a continue -- and this gives you the bad spawn. If this is the case you could test whether you have THAT seed pretty easily by killing yourself immediately at start, using a continue, and then playing through the game and looking for consistencies. Then if you don't see those consistencies, you know you have a 50% shot at a good spawn (instead of 25%).
