Binding shoot to scroll wheel
8 years ago
Denmark

Binding shooting to the scroll wheel would make the final fight faster. I think that's the only thing it will affect, but who knows. I don't think we have any rule against it and as long as it's just a simple rebind (no fancy repeaters or delay timers) it seems like it should be allowed, however no one seems to be doing it. The only real points against it I can see are 1) it can't be done directly from the in-game menus. 2) button mashing boss is a part of the game and we shouldn't try to change that.

I therefore wanted to bring it up and see if there is consensus on whether this should be allowed or not. In any case we should have a clear rule one way or the other. Personally I'm for it as I don't think a direct rebind counts as an external tool just like changing monitor brightness or using a split timer is fine even if they offer something that is not directly available from the in-game menus. However I will be happy to go along with the majority opinion or with any pre-existing rule I'm unaware of.

The following is a video of what the boss fight looked like for me after a few tries:

There seems to be a hard limit of a shot per frame or something like that. And at that shooting speed movement doesn't work properly.

PrettzL likes this
Bretagne, France

Very interesting. I never thought of doing that. You're basically reaching the shooting speed limit: One shoot every two frames.

Considering that the boss has 180HP, that each bullet does 1 damage, that you can shoot up to two bullets every two frames and that it takes ~40 frames for your first bullet to reach the boss you get a theorical time of ~220 frames (about 3.7 seconds) to beat the boss the fastest way possible.

In your video, it took you ~260 frames (about 4.3 seconds) so you're close to the theorical limit using the mouse wheel.

In any case, it's a pretty significant improvement considering that it usually took 8~10 seconds to beat it with the usual button mashing.

Now, about whether or not we should allow it i'm a little bit conflicted. I don't consider this in the same category as "changing monitor brightness" or "using a split timer" because using the mouse scroll afect directly the gameplay and that's what bother me. But, since you doesn't alter the game i don't think it should be banned so... I'm waiting to see everybody else's opinion for the moment.

PrettzL likes this

This is a major discovery, even if it's only about a 5 second save.

I've shared my thoughts with Rezoons and we're aligned and agree that we need to get more feedback in regard to this before making any final rulings on whether this can be accepted in a run or not.

I'll do my part and spread the word to other runners.

@ghuia I need more information about how you're binding to scroll wheel.

Is it done by editing game files manually or with an actively running third party program?

Denmark

I run a program that remaps 'scroll up' to 'a'. I'm sure I could find drivers that do something similar. I don't mind if you reject my run, I would just like to know whether we allow this because if we do I don't want a run with a slow boss fight for no reason.

PrettzL likes this
Bretagne, France

That put us in quite a tricky situation.

The fact that you have to use an external program to make a modification that affect directly the gameplay shouldn't really be allowed. Not only does it bypass the fact that the game was made so that you can't bind the mouse wheel to anything but it also bypass the fact that only one touch on the keyboard can be bind to one action. Otherwise, you could also bind two keys of the keyboard to "shoot" and mash both buttons with two fingers which is also way faster (even if not as fast as the mouse wheel). In the end, what you did is pretty similar to using the mouse wheel as a turbo controller.

But the problem is, if we don't allow that, it would be really complicated to check that nobody is using this in future runs. The only reliable way would be to ask everybody to put a video of their hand with the run but this is obviously needlessly complicated.

I agree that we have to take a decision at some point and we have already talked about it with prettz but the problem seems a little bit more complicated that it looked at first glance.

What this comes down to is verification issues.

One of our priorities as runners should be optimization, that is granted. Another priority should be discovery of new flaws/exploits/bugs built in to the games design.

Speedrunning is meant to be done with as little augmenting of the original game as possible. It's typical that turbo controllers aren't allowed, game genie, action replay, save states, processor clock adjustments, speed slowdown, etc. aren't accepted, but that isn't always the case.

Of the community outlined rules rule 3 is 'Out There Somewhere cannot be modified by 3rd party software during a run' which I'll admit even though using another program to rebind to scroll wheel falls under this rule and would be enough for Rezoons or I to reject runs which use scrollwheel rebind I want to allow it because it's a great discovery. BUT I can appreciate the optimization aspect of this discovery and while I want to allow it based on that there's a problem with that.

If we allow use of third-party programs during runs it would then be a matter of grey area to submit TAS runs and/or simply have a script that does the run in real time.

For me this is a dilemma of trust in the videos I'll be watching and approving/rejecting mixed up with my desire for OTS to be accessible to new/potential runners without too many obstacles in the way of them submitting an acceptable run.

It's been a very long time, for me, since I had to reject a run for Any% IGT because the in game timer was not actually displayed. I really don't want to put more barriers between runs being recorded and submitted as acceptable runs.

What I need from the community are more perspectives than just my own and Rezoons.

Am I over thinking this? Is a 6 second save worth requiring a submitter to record thoroughly what they did with their hands? Should we just open this game up to ANY% as the standard and abandon the constraints of IGT runs entirely?

MIDIbusker likes this
Michigan, USA

I'm still new, so I'm basically commenting as an outsider/spectator. But I think it's worth it to think about the debate as a pragmatic one, rather than one on hard principle. The "no 3rd party software" rule is explicit, but I think the basis for those rules is always accessibility - not every person who plays a game can be reasonably expected to make physical modifications or acquire specific 3rd party controllers for a decisive advantage, for example.

This sounds like a program that isn't actually directly altering OTS, and it sounds like it would be safely available to any PC user. While purists can debate what preserves the integrity of a speedrun, if the majority of us would be willing to download and use the program ourselves, then it only makes sense that in our game, and our category, it would be allowed.

That being said, scrolling instead of mashing fundamentally changes the task performed, which is a substantial strike against it. If, for example, the remap was to left mouse, that would arguably be similar enough to mashing. If, though, we were talking not about a scroll wheel (fairly common) but a synthesizer pitch wheel to accomplish the same, which answer would you be leaning toward?

Thinking pragmatically, though, the difficulty enforcing this could stifle the enjoyment and growth of the community - for basically a finite time save. To me, that is an implicit argument in favor of allowing it. Any% IGT is such a fun category, and so representative of the game, that I would hate to see it become unmanageable. I started with Any% IGT because it was the most fun and accessible, not because it was first on the speedrun.com page.

If scroll wheel binding is banned, I personally would not want to see a hand-cam requirement, but any other solution I can think of would be arbitrary. Would it be possible to implement something similar to SRL proofcalling, where proof of setup could be requested at mods' discretion? It would perhaps be biased against skilled mashers, but it seems like a 5-second boss fight is strikingly distinct from even a 7-second one visually. I just hope that runners wouldn't sabotage their boss fights by a couple seconds to avoid the hassle of a proofcall.

I was 100% in favor when I watched ghuia get (pending) WR with it, but even as I finish this post, I see why this is such a dilemma. Perhaps it could come down to a simple community poll that asks the question:

"Would you be willing to download and use 3rd-party software concurrently with the game?"

rezoons and PrettzL like this
ÃŽle-de-France, France

Hello. Just wanted to give my opinion on this, even if I'm a new runner.

What really bother me here are the third rule, which is for me logical, and the fact that, as BeardedBusker said, it changes the task performed. I understand and I saw the video: the boss fight is amazingly fast, but I think it kind of denature the game. Glitches and skips are just a faster strat, but this change one fundamental mecanic of gameplay. So I am against this modification, sorry.

Sorry for my little argumentation, I am not good enough in English to speak as much as you and express precisely my point, and for any mistakes.

MIDIbusker, rezoons, and PrettzL like this
Denmark

So it seems the general consensus is to not to allow this. That is fine by me as long as we're clear about it. A thing I hadn't considered before was that people with controllers would be at a disadvantage and that is unfair.

About the issue of how to verify that people aren't secretly doing this or otherwise programming their inputs, I say that we trust people unless their run looks suspicious. The community is small and I doubt people would stoop to cheating. I also think it would be hard to cheat without it being quite obvious. Cheating has always been possible, and any game faces the issue that people could TAS their run badly and then just pretend they're playing, but I don't know of any games that want video evidence of inputs. Obviously if a run looks suspicious I think it should be at the mods' discretion to ask for proof or similar, but I doubt this will be necessary.

I definitely don't think this calls for abolishing any% igt. That is imo the most important category.

PrettzL likes this

I truly appreciate everyone's posts to bring about a collective decision regarding this topic.

The issue can be considered resolved as it falls within the confines of rule #3 of the OTS run rules.

A precise definition subsection will be added asap.

And in lieu of an announcement section~

I welcome ghuia to the OTS moderation team!

MIDIbusker likes this
Bretagne, France

Thank you everyone for your opinion. I'm glad we manage to find a general consensus about this issue. Having as many opinion as possible is always a good thing so don't hesitate to share your opinion when you see this kind of topic!

This issue was really at the limit between what is allowed and what isn't so this was a good thing to think deeply about it. As ghuia said, considering how small the community is, cheating isn't really an issue at this point. Adding a new complicated step to the submission process just to prevent a low threat of cheating would be really overzealous and kinda stupid at this point.

No change will be made to the submission process then. We will just be more careful when watching new runs being submitted.

Thank you ghuia for bringing up this issue. This was a pretty neat discovery. Also, congratulation for getting on the moderation team!

PrettzL and MIDIbusker like this
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