Request: Separate N64 and 2020 Port
3 years ago
Texas, USA

To the moderators of this game,

Now that the game has been released alongside Doom Eternal, runners will have the opportunity to learn the game on their platform of choice. Unfortunately, due to the amount of tricks that can only be executed on the original hardware, runners of the new 2020 port are at a severe disadvantage. For instance, in "Watch Your Step" N64 runners can completely skip a fight with a horde of enemies including a Cyberdemon simply by using the SSG clip right at the exit gate. To make things fair, please separate the leaderboards so that those of us running on the new port don't have to remain at the bottom because of tricks we can't perform.

Thank you for your consideration and for your time.

edit: I may have worded things to sound like I am requesting a completely separate board when I meant that there should be new categories within this board instead.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
England

I'm honestly inclined to argue in favour of the 2020 port being its own leaderboard entirely since as a port it behaves fundamentally differently and has extra content, not unlike the separate leaderboards for the newer Unity ports of the original Doom.

something ought to be done either way, a split is fine too, but a new game board is a possibility worth exploring.

edit: it's definitely possible to do either of these things with minimal effort but someone has to go bug Grav about it I doubt he checks this shit much.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
United States

Honestly, this remake has been an extremely tough thing to figure out how to address. I'm just one guy who speedruns a game that almost nobody else has speedran forever. Now everyone wants to play it, but on the substantially worse version. Admittedly, I was just hoping that nobody would care to speedrun the new port and that this would just blow over, but obviously that hasn't happened. That said, I have spent the better part of almost 8 years in the speedrunning community thinking about how best to make communities grow and prosper, how to get people attracted to playing the games I run, and how to best balance the diverse wishes of those who participate.

I am torn between my selfish desire to funnel new players towards the game I run, and my otherwise accommodating nature. Separating the two games splits the community up, which is one of my primary concerns. One may argue that maximally accommodating everyone who wants to play the 2020 port may open the door for someone to play the N64 version down the road. Maybe. But in my experience, every schism in a speedrunning community that is ever made almost never gets undone, and more importantly, it sets a precedent to allow further alterations or splits. Often, a slippery slope occurs when something innocuous at first gets used as justification for what ends up being community killing decisions years down the road.

To me, allowing a speedrunning community to be at the mercy of future profiteers who wish to remake every game ever made for a quick dollar is an insult to the hard work and effort that all the runners of the original game exerted prior to any re-release happening. What if the new Doom 64 release was actually a faster speedrun than N64? The extremely sad but all too common truth is that almost everyone would embrace it as "wow its faster!!!!" and be gleefully willing to obsolete years of history in that game. Perhaps the original and new port would have still been split into separate leaderboards, but an overwhelming majority of people would be playing the new version.

Luckily, this port is much slower and is pretty much a worse speedrun in every conceivable way. There are no glitches, your movement speed is dramatically slower, and you have the advantage of keyboard+mouse (if you play on PC) to trivialize the avoidance of projectile damage. It is my unfortunately unpopular belief that new releases of classic games should be encouraged to be speedran as little as humanly possible. Giving 2020 Doom 64 its own leaderboard inherently validates it as a game on equal footing with the original, something I staunchly disagree with.

If Doom 64 had a titanic history of hundreds or thousands of runners, which games like Mario 64 or Goldeneye 007 have, the leaders of that community would have near infinite leverage to attract new players into playing the original game. They would also not need to sweat about some re-release stealing prospective runners from their game, because the relative difference in community size would be so staggering that the remake community could just be ignored (which is what happens). In my case, we have a game in Doom 64 that I feel is every bit as quality of a speedrun as SM64, yet the history of breaking new ground in this game has been in the hands of really only 3 people: Peaches, ZELLLOOO, and myself. The worry is that, without the grand history and leverage that having a storied history and large community gives you, the relative size of the new speedrunning community in the remake vs the community in the original game will be non trivial. In this even worse scenario, the remake community would likely be 2-5 times bigger than the original. Most players will be playing the version that is 50% slower. What message does that send to the outside?

Perhaps this post comes off as some grumpy jaded speedrunner’s delusional musings. I don’t know, maybe it’s true. I have spent 6 years playing this game trying so hard to get anyone to play it because it’s perhaps the most underrated speedrun in existence. I am extremely biased, but I still feel like my general sense of the situation is correct. If there is an overwhelming majority of people who disagree with my ideas stated here, then I can’t really do anything to stop it. I mostly wanted to share my thoughts so that I could be at peace, no matter what ends up happening. Hopefully, I am just making a mountain out of a molehill.

tl;dr: -new leaderboard discourages players from playing original and fastest version -keeping the games together still allows you to filter by platform -pretty please speedrun n64 :)

WanderAgro likes this
Texas, USA

Thanks for the reply.

Honestly, this is just like the remasters for Turok 1 and 2, which I personally feel are also underrated speed games. No one touches the N64 games anymore except for a few select individuals on occasion. The remasters have created a flourishing community of active runners that continues to this day. Some massive breakthroughs were made this year alone that have drastically changed the dynamics of how both games are run, and its all thanks to renewed interest from a readily available remaster that anyone can pick up. The leaderboard still includes the N64 version, and those of us who love the game praise those runners regardless of their choice of platform. So what we have now is the same case; renewed interest from a readily available game. People don't care if it's a slower version with fewer tricks (I sure don't) they are just happy to have their hands on a classic game that FINALLY got a much needed port. If anyone wanted to run the N64 version, they would have done so by now.

With all that said, I think the leaderboards should stay together but with an added filter for the original and 2020 ports - maybe some additional moderators to help out too. This keeps the community together and allows it to grow from more active runners.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
England

yes that can be a possible direction to go in quite easily and probably should be the direction taken

speedrun leaderboards are not really the place for pseudo-academic self-preening bloviating about the nature of re-releases of classic games. I understand your feeling, Grav, but it's also completely irrelevant and kind of selfish?

they're literally different games with different content, under pretty much any definition it'd qualify as a different category if not an entirely different game leaderboard. However you, personally, feel about it doesn't really factor into it.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
kyo, GrowthKasei, and KaosWulf like this
Georgia, USA

The 2020 port is vastly different from the n64 version, some tricks work and some don't, it even works differently than the unofficial PC port so it should be its own board or category.

United States

Punchy, I'm not sure why you are being hostile when I openly admitted that I have no control over this, that I do not seek to force my will upon you all, and that I am probably being selfish. You are projecting remarkably hard with your word salad description of my post based on my (thankfully) limited knowledge of you. I am annoyed nobody runs this game and now everyone runs the wrong version. It's pretty simple. That said, I really have no right telling people what they should play or care about. I can only state what I wish to happen and leave it at that.

If you all believe the new Doom 64 is so wildly different from the original as to warrant a new leaderboard, you should request it to be made. There is not much more for me to say about it. I have no business being involved in the management of what you all believe is a completely different game, just as I have no business moderating a Final Fantasy game or a Mario game.

Best wishes to everyone, and feel free to ask me any questions about the speedrun if you need help. I have a substantial amount of practical knowledge from running this game for as long as I have.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
WanderAgro likes this
United States

There are only 3 sensible paths forward:

-Keep the leaderboards merged (ranked together) and allow platform filtering. -Create separate platform subcategories for every single shared IL and every single full game category. -Make a new separate leaderboard.

The last two options achieve the same effective goal, but have different levels of visibility and clutter. If you want your game to be independent, your leaderboards to be clean, and for your fastest times to be showcased the most, then you should split from Doom N64. Otherwise, you will always be obscured by the N64 times, as N64 will always be the default category presented/selected on this leaderboard.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
WanderAgro likes this
Texas, USA

"Now everyone runs the wrong version." You sound like you're speaking as the absolute authority on the subject, when the only difference here is the engine the game runs on and how accessible it is to everyone. I'm not about to go out and buy a modded N64 with HDMI ports and a capture card just so I can run the original version, when I can pay $5 (or get it free from my Doom Eternal preorder) for a digital copy that suits me just fine.

Keeping the leaderboards merged and ranked together is NOT a sensible path. This is why Duke Nukem 3D and the World Tour version has their own leaderboards; the games are fundamentally different in what you can achieve. I can already tell you that there are people avoiding submitting their runs for this very reason alone. Creating a separate platform category ideally keeps the community together, but are you going to be around to moderate that? It's going to need even more added, since you have to take The Lost Levels into account as well.

Way I see things now in my opinion, the best option is a brand new leaderboard.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Michigan, USA

Have discussed it in the past posts in the forum here. Keeping Doom 64 as a single leaderboard will save confusion in future submissions. We can all agree the 2020 port is Different in a speedrunning context. I don't advocate for the 2020 port to be default here. Having it listed in a pool time with "Classic" is a bit much also. Option 2 listed above is a viable option for the future of the leader board, while still respecting the history of the original games speedruns.

Obviously every player who intends to get serious with the 2020 port for max times, should seek to maximize runs in the "Classic" in future sessions. But having 2020 runs listed in the same place as a 2nd subcategory, will help introduce those who who may not have discovered the original speedrun yet.

-Add 2 subcategories to all full game categories and ILs: 1. Classic , 2. 2020 -Default every submitted run to Classic, this will place the majority of Classic runs into respectful category. -Take the new 2020 port submissions (10-15 runs), change to 2020 subcategory. -Classic remains the default category. -2020 does not distinct PC and consoles separate, but lists the port away from N64. -N64 is encouraged for those who want to get serious for max times.

Grav, have you considered the new port is not only widely accessible, but a nice tool for those looking to learn the classic version? I've had an N64 cartridge for 3 years, and couldn't bring myself to learn much because of how dark it is. With the 2020 port, I've learned more about Doom 64's maps in the time since release, and could start learning glitches on N64 now that I have the basic routes down (intended route for most part). I know 2 other folks in the same spot right now, both with a copy of D64, both learning 2020 for basics before going back. There could be more who find their way to learning the classic games routes and glitches this way. Having a start with the intended route, 2020 port introduction could help them learn for N64 runs for maps, keys, spawns, linedefs.

I can understand the frustration seeing folks run a far slower version of the game. Time spent routing, and refining the game into the speedrun it is. It can feel like it was all for nothing with the new version appearing. But its a positive aspect to take for this version, not only accessible, but for a lot of people, introductory to Doom 64 as a whole. I feel like accepting a new version, while still keeping the default as classic, is a good way to balance this reality. Some more tutorials on a few glitches in Doom 64 Classic could help bring people from the 2020 port, into running the Classic also.

Both can exist side by side here, both can benefit from one another. 2020, the slower port, introduces folks to the superior speedrun times in the Classic. The Classic port, tests those who are ready to go to the next level when 2020 times are maxed. Its a shift in the way the run is discovered and learned for the future.

TL;DR Make 2 subcategories, keep N64 as the default. So long as boards for 2020 are supported also. Pls accept new things happen, but old things are still things and they are still there. Classic game is obviously the run to learn if you want the serious low times with glitches. 2 different leaderboards will have dual submissions and confusion forever.

depr4vity likes this
England

[quote]Punchy, I'm not sure why you are being hostile when I openly admitted that I have no control over this, that I do not seek to force my will upon you all, and that I am probably being selfish.[/quote]

I don't really intend to come across as hostile but I also don't really feel the need to mince words since I do think the entire thrust of your argument is empty sentimentality and I find it a bit eye-rolling and obstructive to the point of what's being requested here. If you knew it was selfish, I'm not sure what type of reaction you were expecting from people who didn't ask for it. It's especially agitating because you are the only person who can make changes to the board and it's something I know can be done in under 30 seconds if you just felt like it.

I actually understand your feeling pretty well (I feel a similar sort of way about the Crash and Resident Evil remakes lmao), it's just weak grounds to base any sort of argument about board structure on. That's blog material, not leaderboard mod stuff.

Anyway, since most of us agree it needs to be split, you can just....do it, really. Category split on this page is fine.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
England

ok we're going the requesting an entire new leaderboard route from my conversing with the other PC runners, so actually nothing needs to be done here. ball's in sr.c's court now.

Canada

We've added a new leaderboard for the 2020 re-release here: https://www.speedrun.com/doom_64_2020

Feel free to reach out to me if you need any help getting everything set up and runs moved over.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
SuperGamer64, Alexo, and KaosWulf like this
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