Cuphead Patch v 1.1.3 Update
6 years ago
California, USA

That is something I forgot to mention as well. We can certainly work out a pre/post patch thing for ILs

California, USA

That is something I forgot to mention as well. We can certainly work out a pre/post patch thing for ILs

United States

In my opinion, the fastest version should ALWAYS be the default. People who want to run the game casually are still free to run on the newest patch. Downgrading is a pretty minor inconvenience, and a guide should be posted in the "Guides" section. Sometimes getting the best time in a game requires dealing with minor inconveniences. Another such inconvenience is changing control schemes. The run is harder with default controls, but putting in the small effort required to learn a new control scheme makes the run faster and better. Same principle.

The Xbox consideration is totally irrelevant. As another commenter stated, there is ALWAYS going to be a dominant platform for any game with multiple of them. Look at Super Mario Sunshine. All the top times are the Wii version because the loading times are faster. People are still free to run on the GameCube version (there are a couple on there) but they are at a disadvantage. Once again this also applies to version differences.

I don't know if it's possible on this site but I propose that in addition to the "Platform" column on the leaderboard we add a "Version" column. I see no reason whatsoever to create more new categories if adding a column is possible. This way nobody would be pushed from running the game casually, since if they intend on taking it more seriously they will go through the small effort of downgrading.

The old version is the best for speedrunning as it is the fastest and has exploitable glitches. The idea that we should invalidate all runs that are on older versions is ridiculous. I would argue that this would push many speedrunners away, including me.

As a side note to the moderators, please try to be more decisive. The future of this game is unclear as there is still no consensus on the menu glitch. If things continue like this, who knows how long future decisions will take? You can't make everyone happy.

Ohio, USA

Nobody was saying anything about invalidating runs on the old patch. They stated that runs on the old patch were here to stay. The entire issue is whether or not there will be categories for players that play on a non-modified version of the game (aka, the newest patch).

And if the fastest possible time was the default, then Any% or All Bosses Simple would be the main category, not All Bosses Regular. It makes sense to choose what becomes the default category based on mass appeal, not fastest possible time. In some games those are one and the same, but in other games they are not.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
United States

Looks like I misread icy's post. It sounded like they were advocating for wiping old runs when a new patch happens. The rest of my post still stands however.

"if the fastest possible time was the default, then Any% or All Bosses Simple would be the main category, not All Bosses Regular." All Bosses Regular is the most popular category, which is why it shows up first when you click on the game leaderboard. This has nothing to do with how fast the category is. My wording might have been confusing when I said "default" but I am actually advocating for having another column that says "Version" and keep them all together. Like I've said, moving old version runs away from the main leaderboards would push more people away than simply adding a new column. The fact that people playing on the new version are at a disadvantage doesn't matter at all, since there are plenty of things that could give someone a disadvantage that we accept on a regular basis. It would definitely not matter to the casual speedrunner since they aren't going for a top time and they can still submit to the main leaderboards.

Florida, USA

Going to echo the sentiment that banning all glitches on current patch is silly. With modern games, downpatching should be the exception to the rule, in my opinion. ESPECIALLY considering this is an Xbox game. Console games available on PC go by console rules, generally. Super Mario Sunshine is technically still a Gamecube-only game run on a Virtual Console Emulator on the Wii. Totally different story.

I'm going to restate my support for having 3 categories, basically fully glitched, glitchless, and a happy medium between. I understand this will make a lot of categories but Cuphead is such a short game and I will argue that having more categories ends up in a more inclusive community, not a divided one.

As far as glitch categories go, I propose:

  1. Downpatch, all glitches allowed. (WSG, menu glitch, phase skips, everything)
  2. Current patch, some glitches allowed, continually voted on by the community as the game develops. (As I am writing this, major glitches like Menu Glitch, Kahl Skip, and Monkey Skip if they still exist in the patch come to mind. But grey areas like ledge clips/cutting corners etc. would be allowed.)
  3. Current patch, no glitches allowed. (No ledge clips, no OOB, no door clips, nothing.)

As well as the different runs:

  1. Any% (Bad Ending). Get to the Devil and end the game.
  2. Any% (Good Ending). Get to the Devil and beat him.
  3. 100%. Get 100% on your save file from a new file. This means: all coins, all supers, all levels, but no Expert bosses allowed. (Don't force runners to buy all items/beat all Casino bosses arbitrarily. MDHR gave us quantifiable percentages for a reason. Just like in other games, menuing and shopping should be cost vs benefit analysis - not forced.)
  4. 200%. Get 200% on your save file from a new file. This means: all coins, all supers, all levels, then a runback of all the bosses on Expert.

I am in favor of adding more niche categories like "Low%", "Beat everything the game has to offer" (old 100% route), hell anything maybe even "beat the game while juggling%" as long as there are enough people interested, but I would expect the 4 categories above to be the main ones.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts on the matter. I just want the most inclusive community possible. Thanks for reading.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Jason2890 likes this
United States

I'm a bit confused by what you mean when you say "this is an Xbox game." It was released at the same time for PC and Xbox. If anything, Sunshine has MORE reasons to create separate categories since it was originally released for the GameCube years before the Wii came out. But we don't. Why? Because that shouldn't matter at all. If there are multiple platforms for a game, one of the platforms is bound to be fastest, and that one should always be predominantly used. Another counterexample would be NieR: Automata as someone else mentioned. It was originally released for PS4 and the PC port was released 10 days later. I am not familiar with the speedrun for it, but looking at the leaderboard they have both platforms together, with the top times being on PC. They have a "Patch Version" column and the ability to filter by patch and platform. Filtering will show updated rankings as if you were looking at new categories. I think this is exactly how we should do it.

I have to say I disagree with having separate sub categories for each category. Even with how simple the leaderboards are now there are a few categories that barely get any attention. That is simply the reality with any speedgame, and adding more categories is only going to make it worse. Now, adding more niche categories as you suggested would be a good idea and wouldn't add to the clutter since they'd be in misc. categories. Another suggestion for one of them could be "10 coins%" or "all coins" or something.

MrDino023 likes this
Florida, USA

A lot of people (myself included) are holding off on submitting runs or even practicing specific runs because everything is so up-in-the-air with this game - of course there are no submissions to categories that change often. That's why we need to add categories instead of trying to shoehorn everyone into playing one way.

California, USA

To respond to your point about being decisive, snakemaster, I understand that the menu glitch is still up in the air. In fact, I posted about it on that thread a few hours ago, but I'll repeat that sentiment here. Right now, the patch is more of a priority in my mind. I haven't forgotten about menu glitch but I think we need to decide things about the patch first, since that could affect what happens with menu glitch.

To be fair though, I don't see why the menu glitch is holding you up. It's not banned, nor will it be. The only thing up in the air about it is whether we'll have a separate category for those who don't want to use it. Nothing is stopping you from submitting runs as a result of it. I'll admit it has taken a bit on the long side, but there's been a lot of confusion for various reasons about what the issue is. Furthermore, outside interference with the poll caused us to create a new, speedrunner-only one.

Unfortunately, you have to keep in mind that we are a large community. Things will take time to figure out. Look at what happened with the patch. We rushed to make a decision on it and screwed up. I know it's important to make a decision, but it's just as important to make sure we're doing things with the community in mind. The second we start rushing things is the second we start screwing it all up.

I know we can't please everyone. Never have been able to, never will be able to. But that doesn't mean that other people's opinions aren't important. Ultimately this is everyone's board, not ours. You all are the ones who ultimately decide how things are or how they won't be; we just implement these policies and police them.

California, USA

To those holding off on runs because the future of the game is up in the air, I apologize. But it's important to make sure we get this right this time around. We have a few options at our disposal, some of which provide fairly similar results. We should have an answer implemented by the end of the week at the latest. It's also only been a day since the patch. I just ask that you be patient with us and give us the small amount of time we need to make sure we handle this appropriately

GUITARMACIST likes this
California, USA

The poll is now live. You must be a speedrunner in the Discord to vote. If you would like to vote, make sure you have the appropriate role in the server. If you don't, contact me or one of the mods on Discord to get the role. The poll closes at 11:59 pm EST on Monday, December 4th, with the implementation of the winning option occurring shortly after

Bulgaria

About individual runs,I also think it's ABSOLUTELY mandatory to have pre/post patch categories!I thought that is a no brainer!Without that our world records before the patch,that we worked so hard on,will be deleted?!Now,if that happens I will probably lose any will to speedrun in the future!Btw I am an Xbox One user as well! I mean,would't it be more reasonable to have two major categories:pre patch and post patch,and then all the sub ones:glitchless and non glitchless etc.?I know Xbox users(as myself)are forced to submit only post patch runs but we have to accept that,there is nothing we can do about it.HOWEVER our pre patch runs HAVE TO STAY,NO MATTER WHAT! And if someone wants to beat them they are free to do so by downpatching.This way pre-patch runs will still be alive and legit!

Edited by the author 6 years ago
California, USA

That's this issue at the heart of this debate. Clearly, there's a need for us to split pre/post patch runs, but the question is how to do it. The way you suggested is one of the leading options, but there has been a lot of talk about a version filter as well

Bulgaria

It is already done as I can see on the leaderboards,and I think this is the right way to do it!So,thank you!

GamerAttack27 likes this
United States

I actually was learning All bosses (Normal) before the patch happened. Since the patch, I've been forced to sit here waiting since it's still unclear how the categories will be handled. And I'm not blaming anyone, I'd rather wait and have it done properly than otherwise. Just stating my own 2 cents that most other speedrunning communities I'm part of have the most accessible version as the "main" speedrun so to speak. For example in the KH community, the JP versions are always faster and sometimes buggier than English, but English is often the main category, since it's most accessible and most commonly ran. People may not prefer the new patch, which is why the old patch can still have its own categories, but I personally hope the new patch will become the main route. PC users and Xbox users would both be able to run, and feel they have a purpose to run. As a new runner to this game, I definitely won't have any motivation to run "dead" categories just because PC users prefer the old patch. Looking forward to when you guys come up with the resolution.

Jason2890 and GUITARMACIST like this
Texas, USA

Honestly it seems a little silly to me that we're even considering basically ignoring the new patch for everything but glitchless. I understand why people like the old patch, a lot of the bugs made the run a lot more fun/interesting, but to all but ignore what is now essentially the full game in favor of an older, buggier version of the game is a bit ridiculous. There's nothing stopping people from running the old patch if that's what they like, or having it continue to be the primary category if it's the most popular, but people should absolutely be able to run what is as of now the completed version of the game if that's what they prefer without being in the same category as the old patch which is a different run.

GUITARMACIST and Jason2890 like this
Germany

Make different subcategories for "Any Version" and "Newest Version", problem solved. I'm not even a fan of having many subcategories myself but this seems like the best solution to this problem.

Jason2890 likes this

Just throwing out my two cents, but ya, dividing it how it is now between legacy and current patch seems the way to go. Sucks xbox players can't compete in legacy anymore but it's better than nothing and makes the most people happy.

I did wanna bring something else up and ask some questions.

I'm still pretty new to speed running and I wonder why games aren't split often by the platform. Like snakemaster777 said, he thinks the fastest platform should be default. Personally I disagree and think the games should be split by the version or system they appear on. Though I can't think of an example off the top of my head, it seems shitty that a dedicated speedrunning game that people worked tirelessly on for a decade or so on say only the PS2 which suffered from long load times, though even compared to other runners, just to someday that game gets ports to say the switch which cuts out the poor loading and even casual players are now able to topple past WRs. I don't know, a situation like that seems shitty and I wouldn't be surprised if similar things have happened.

When you separate by system, this problem seems more avoidable. I don't deny a PC nearly is always the optimal speed running platform, but at the same time I kind of like when when games are run on same hardware (consoles). There is something reassuring knowing the players you compete against are on the same hardware as you. With PCs and all the different configurations that can effect FPS, load times, hot key mapping, etc., two people both playing on PCs may have vastly different experiences.

I get having too many categories can be off putting, though at the same time I think in a lot of cases they are needed.

California, USA

You can always sort the leaderboards by platform