Proposal to list PhotN Richter runs in main category boards
3 years ago
Texas, USA

I'd like to propose that we accept submissions of the mobile SotN port to the main Richter Any% and All Bosses categories. I know what most of you are thinking; That's stupid. The game is so different, it has touchscreen controls and continues and you can't buffer out of doors! Sure, that's all true, but what are we really worried about?

Putting the PhotN Richter run alongside the Playstation and Xbox runs actually has some benefits, and I think that if we enumerate them, they easily outweigh the drawbacks. So put aside your initial inclination to scoff at the idea, and let me attempt to convince you.

First, I will list the benefits. The biggest one is the added accessibility. PhotN is much easier for the general population to obtain, install, and play than any other release of SotN yet. Most smartphones even have screen capture built in, making it possibly the easiest platform for recording a run.

Speaking to this, there are already several PhotN Richter runners out there, so, we could presumably have more Richter runs right now if we expand submissions. I, for one, think this is a good thing. However, these runs are not optimized, and, as I will argue later, never will contend with tops runs on emu or xbox.

This is a minor point, but it would also be easier for the moderating team to implement this. We wouldn't have to create a new category on our leaderboards, just add Mobile as a platform and amend the rules where applicable.

Next, I will address the arguments against the proposal. Likely the first to spring to mind for most Richter runners is of course the "bladedash button". The very concept of such a thing has been a meme for years and then they went ahead and actually made one. But the thing is, it doesn't help you go any faster.

If you think the Richter runs are just bladedashing, you have a very cursory knowledge of Richter's mechanics. Sliding, uppercuts, and transitional movements are almost as, if not more-so, important to the run as consistent bladedashing. This is really where the argument against touchscreen falls apart.

Frankly, touchscreen controls in general are awful and PhotN's are no different. Richter's uppercut input will always be faster and more consistent on a gamepad or fight stick than on touchscreen. And have you ever tried to candle kick on a touchscreen? Lol. Whatever time is saved with optimal bladedashing is crushed by the time lost doing literally anything else.

Aside from the touchscreen controls, how much different is the PhotN Richter run from the Playstation version? I would argue that there is no difference, aside from not being able to buffer inputs through doors. If you connected an external controller to your phone and cropped the game window border, I would not be able to tell the difference between your run and a run on xbox (save for their distinctly different flavors of shitty audio). To me, this is the strongest argument in support of the proposal.

TL;DR: PhotN controls are trash and are disadvantaged to physical controllers, regardless of the bladedash button, however, we should allow submissions on the leaderboard because it's otherwise the same game as far as Richter is concerned, only it's much more accessible to newcomers.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Bulgaria

I dislike setting the precedent of allowing significantly different versions of the game under the same category.

I would argue that there is no difference, aside from not being able to buffer inputs through doors. I disagree. As somebody that has run Alucard Any% on DXC the game feels very different. There is an inherent buffering system that smooths out inputs resulting in both positive and negative effects. Phone version also has a checkpoint continue function allowing for way more leniency on death.

My issue is not with any advantage the macros provide, but that DXC and Saturn are far enough removed from the original that they warrant separation even though in the case of Richter the route is the same.

While you are absolutely correct that it will never touch the top tier runs, it breaks the comparability of runs below that. Even playstation warrants separation on that account, but at least it and xbla work identically on the mechanical level.

I would be up for adding it as it's own subcategory just like DXC is there for Maria, but only if there is enough activity to warrant that. (which arguably Maria doesn't even have) And even then Phone SOTN's continue and macros present issues over DXC.

For me personally there is just not enough of an incentive to break the boards just to accommodate runs with the lowest possible commitment or effort and absolutely no merit or aspirations to be competitive. I think those runs should absolutely be shared in the forum or discord, but until there is enough activity to warrant a leaderboard I don't see the need to add them.

Texas, USA

While you are absolutely correct that it will never touch the top tier runs, it breaks the comparability of runs below that. Even playstation warrants separation on that account, but at least it and xbla work identically on the mechanical level.

This is even more in support of having PhotN listed next to xbox for Richter since their load times are similar. PhotN might actually be faster than Xbox since there's no metal platters spinning up. And again, PhotN + controller is identical to Xbox/emu mechanically.

For me personally there is just not enough of an incentive to break the boards just to accommodate runs with the lowest possible commitment or effort and absolutely no merit or aspirations to be competitive.

You are erasing the member of our discord that is actively competing with other's times and their own. I also originally discounted them for it, but they are undeniably trying their best to improve their Richter time. Now, I agree, their platform of choice is unfortunate, but I think we should be encouraging them to develop because there is always the hope that they eventually reach the ceiling of what can be done on touchscreen and seek to improve beyond that.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Bulgaria

And again, PhotN + controller is identical to Xbox/emu mechanically. I don't agree with that and this is my main argument against the inclusion.

Scotland

I don't see how the game differs from other versions of the game other than the interface. I don't think a game should have a separate category on the basis of it having a worse control scheme. If you're gonna make the accessibility argument, I'd recommend people play it on emulator instead.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
United States

Unfortunately I don't think "worse control scheme" really covers it. Touch screen is one thing, but imagine you wire up a real controller with a blade dash button. Then you have a strict advantage gameplay-wise over runners of any other versions. While consistent blade dashing obviously isn't everything, you'd be a fool not to use insane tools like that. It's just not comparable in the long run. All things considered, I think I'm convinced that the run is different enough in terms of gameplay to separate it from the main leaderboard.

Texas, USA

I personally have to Agree with Rasha on this argument. The utilization of blade dash button on controller gives a very unfair advantage to the runner then the touch screen does. Controllers do provide more control of the movement in the game, which is actually very important in the Richter runs. I personally think if PhoTN gets a Leaderboard; that there should be categories for controller and non controller runs, with the quick save feature allowed

Texas, USA

Touch screen is one thing, but imagine you wire up a real controller with a blade dash button.

This is not how the game is implemented in reality. When you connect a controller to PhotN, it removes the touchscreen controls and it doesn't map any buttons to the special move shortcuts. Thus, there is no advantage to using controller on mobile versus using controller on xbox or psx. This argument is purely a hypothetical and I don't feel it should have any weight in consideration.

Chugga0921 likes this
Texas, USA

Let's give this a try and see how it goes. I will change the rules for the Richter Any% and All Bosses categories to accept PhotN runs. If at any point it comes to light that DXC Richter has an advantage over PSX Richter, I will unlist the runs from the board and that will likely be the end of PhotN on our leaderboards considering how little interest in general there is in running this version of the game.

MASH likes this
Bulgaria

Probably a good idea to put in the rules that the game has to be ran at 60hz/fps since photn can run at whatever you can set your display properties to.

3snow_p7im likes this
Texas, USA

Probably a good idea to put in the rules that the game has to be ran at 60hz/fps since photn can run at whatever you can set your display properties to.

Rules amended

Hesse, Germany

***Touch screen is one thing, but imagine you wire up a real controller with a blade dash button. ā€ā€----------------

If Photn is played on Android and connected to a Ps4 or X-Box Controller the Dash Button etc will be removed anyway and your able to play just normal beside the different Menu.

And it seems its just the same Version which is on Ps4

Greets

United States

Photn with touchscreen is weird.

Photn with controller is same as ps4 pal version, except even faster load times and 'continue" option.

it CANNOT be put on same track as psx version, and might even be unfair to put on DXC track.