http://www.speedrun.com/run/y4595jqm from 0:00 to 0:45 (lucas tv room)
Does that mean the rule is irrelevant now and we can put music again on our runs ?
the rules say (All runs after 3/17/2017 must have Game and Microphone audio only. No part of the game footage/audio is to be eliminated for any reason.) so that means he submited it after the rule was there
A big part of the argument against music was that if it was hit with copyright then part of the video would be muted which is easier to manipulate. When he put 0:45 he didn't mean 45 seconds, it's the first 45 minutes of the run. I trust Punchy and having not watched the run other than hearing the lack of audio I would still trust that his run is legit, but I understand where Psarthex is coming from here and why he would ask because he has had to change how he streams to be certain that his runs would be accepted here.
@Prawnik675, we just went through a ton of drama on the forums and on discord because of the decision to tighten down and enforce that rule.
I've informed Carci and Punchy in the discord, waiting for them to respond. I'm not rejecting that run right now because simply put I don't want this to turn into a 5 page argument on music again, and it's time for all of the mods to get involved in this. If a mod accepts a run that breaks the rules it's their job to reject it after the fact in my opinion. Other mods shouldn't be needing to clear it up.
Personally, if any run I go to verify has music it in or is muted, I will reject it. The rule is there, and has already been explained numerous times, so I will enforce it.
damn dude i got SNITCHED
I completely fucked up the audio mixing and didn't think to double check until the lucas TV cutscene, so the audio didn't get recorded before that point. It's probably not a mistake I'd make twice. I then just submitted anyway because:
1.) the rule sucks cock and I've made it known I think it's dumb as fuck before 2.) Runs with muted/music/random errors get through literally all the time and I kinda just wanted to press my luck. Worse that happens they tell me no.
so yeah I just made a mistake with the capture and just tried anyway, I will now wax lyrical about why it shouldn't matter for about three paragraphs.
As a sidenote, I think it's a fairly strong argument against the rule if nobody can actually be arsed to enforce it properly. That and we're at a point with the game where like, basically none of the runners like the rule, especially the top ones? Can I call myself top? Does top 5 count as top? Either way it's kinda fucked that we're dealing with a rule most of us don't like because just "said so"? That ain't how community-mod relationship is supposed to work.
Meanwhile, runs where facecams, splits and other idiot streaming shit are obscuring large portions of the game feed there is no rule against and would all be verified without question despite that being probably /worse/ than a lack of audio. I actually had a difficult time learning NG Easy off the WR because the guy put his facecam such that it completely obscured his fucking ammo count. That crap is fine, but woah man don't fuck with that audio.
for the record I'm not saying those things should be banned either (although please don't be that guy with the fucking facecam over his ammo count ffs) but mainly just highlighting how similar "obscuring the game" occurs on a visual level and nobody cares, but audio is the highly prized thing. Fuckin why?
Especially since the rule is so goddamn arbitrary and meaningless "only game and mic". Why is mic allowed, but music not? Because streamers use mic, that's basically the only reason. If I use a mic and just drown out the game audio by yelling into it the entire time, I'm not in strict violation of the rule despite definitely being in violation of the spirit.
also just about everytime I've told this rule to anyone from any other speedrun community they always go "Why?" or express confusion that such a thing exists
It's a bad fuckin rule. It looks bad from the outside looking in, it feels bad from the inside interacting with it. It's flawed in the way it's written, it's pointlessly restrictive to its runners, the community for the game largely doesn't want it, it doesn't actually really stop people from frauding runs, mods don't actually seem that interested in enforcing it anyway and places a totally arbitrary importance on audio over a clean game capture feed for no reason I can work out other than "because that's the personal pet-peeve of the game moderation".
what's probably going to happen tho is I'm going to get a retroactive reject and fuck-all else. Yay. What an exciting world I live in where tradition for tradition's sake is largely overriding the active will of the people running the shitting thing.
Psarthex- Xerian's run was submited 18days ago there was no rule at that time,but i get your point
Personally I would want to change the current audio rule for this:
"1. Please don't get the majority of your run muted (because of copyright strikes/whatever)" "2. Please don't cover relevant UI elements (such as ammo count or inventory) with your streaming layout."
While I agree with zenix, that's an ambiguous rule, if you can even call it that, and I recall the reason for banning music entirely was that the existing rule of ensuring music doesn't drown out game audio was already being ignored. The response to receiving several submissions with muted audio or music that's blasting over the entire game audio prompted mods to instill the "no audio save for game and mic audio" rule being implemented in the first place.
With that said, I definitely agree that the music rule should be simple etiquette on the runners part if they want to submit a run, however I also understand the mods' frustration with runs that end up muted or have music that is simply way too loud.
I don't have a dog in this fight since I don't run this game, but I think zenix is on to something with reinstate a vague suggestion, rather than a rule. Mods can use their discretion to accept or reject a run. If a runner has an issue with a rejection while they have muted audio, too bad. However if someone submits a 14th place run and a mod lets it go with a chunk of audio muted, I see very little harm done with that as well.
Double standard? Sure. But people seem to hate the definitive single standard that has been set out, so here we are.
Well, it's just my personal view. I just think the rules could be more refined but I understand why they are as "strict" as they are right now for the sake of making verification easier to mods.
My annoyance with music was always deciding what is "too much" music in terms of volume.
The only way to handle the allowance of music would be to make everything fair game. There is absolutely no difference between a run drowning out the game audio and muted audio. The end result is you cannot hear the game. Every time I had a run with questionably loud music, which was a hell of a lot of the time, I would ask Carci or another mod for a 2nd opinion.
If people want to vote majority to reallow music, I am personally fine with that. But the ruling should either be 'no music whatsoever' or 'anything is fair game' in my opinion. Trying to work out a balance inbetween just doesn't work, because a lot of the time it's down to subjective thought. You allow runs through that are basically no different than the runs you've prior rejected. That's why the inbetween made no sense.
TDLR; If people see no merit in the games audio, speedrun wise, as a majority, then this could be a thing. However, then my personal stance changes to 'game audio does not matter whatsoever, so allow anything'. Trying to objectively work out what specific type of volume level is allowed is retarded and does not work. Trying to set a time limit on drowned out/muted audio will not work.
From a mods perspective we're royally fucked because then cheating (particularly on console) becomes as easy as being adept enough to handle Windows Movie Maker or Avidemux with 20 mins of prior experience because in-game timer. So it's either mods get fucked, or runners get fucked over. Choose one. Either way, I'm done with this discussion, my essay above has laid out my full opinion.
The rule can stay. But don't accept runs with 45 minutes muted audio Kappa
I mean, it's either Carci that doesn't give a single fuck about checking runs correctly (because wtf man, you missed that 45 minutes part ? Feels like you just jumped to the end of the run) or mods can't sing on the same hymn sheet.
Anyway it feels bad for the whole coherence you're trying to bring here. I get that you want the verification to be easier for you, that's why I don't run with music anymore, to have that sweet sweet clean audio you deserve to have my men. My point is; I got along with that rule, several weeks have passed and we shouldn't see any new runs with muted audio. Forgetting Xerian's run which was submitted and accepted the very same day the rule was decided (whereas mine was rejected, lel). Let's make room for coherence, shall we ?
it's OK I PB'ed and the audio's actually there this time 4Head
just so we're keeping score though:
number of cheaters/frauds/whatever stopped by rule: 0 number of legitimate runners slightly inconvenienced by it: I count 4 but there's probably more.
That being said, my intention with submitting was kinda just being cheeky. I was not really trying to fuck with the moderation or set them up to fail and I feel bad my bullshit is giving people a window to pile more crap onto Carci's plate.
don't get me wrong I still don't like the rule for much of the reasons illustrated but uh, sorry? For however much that's worth?
Yes, I did just jump to the end of the run. Because every time I log into speedrun.com there's like 20 runs to go through because there's not enough moderators right now. So, the only thing I'm actually checking is whether there is video and whether it is continuous. But occasionally I find gems like the guy who fullscreens his webcam and destroys his voice to force hype. Too bad it is literally covering entire chunks of footage deliberately, as funny as it is to watch.
Punchy - Don't feel bad, better you than some other belligerent asshole deliberately looking for holes to make me plug up, but I already made peace with the fact I can't check all of them. Does create an annoying witchhunt callout scenario though.
Oy, don't get me wrong Carci, I wasn't looking for holes (I'd apply to be mod if I wanted so) neither was I trying to trashtalk on your back, sometimes I just take a quick peak on other's run and I noticed that. So I was just curious
