This goes for any cheating software, be it ¤22, ¤advantage, ¤ware, etc. (Censored as to not promote cheating runs.) However, some cheats use overlays that show the name of the cheat on-screen or the values of certain cheats, so those will be easy to detect, obviously. Cheaters could always just bind their jump key to a mouse button that doesn't show up on an overlay and hold that for hops, as well. Some cheats also have hotkeys that you can set that disable certain features like autobhop, so that falling off of ledges is still possible.
To be honest, there's really no way to prove that someone's going FROM SPAWN OUT MIDDLE AND INTO THE SAFEROOM LIKE A SPEED DEMON with a script unless they make it really obvious. There's nothing that can be done aside from carefully screening every run, which the mods do a pretty good job at as it is. Nobody really bhops in runs, anyway, because we're all shit at it compared to pros and end up wasting time.
EDIT: op y u delete post fam
How can you tell if the mods "do a pretty good job"? I'm curious about where the line would be drawn, because cheaters could select important parts of a run to enable a bhop script and chalk it up to luck.
For example, would the beginning of this video raise any eyebrows?
I've been bhopping since Quake, and have had to practice it in Quake 3 CPM, Warsow, and other Source games. I've only recently started trying it seriously in Left 4 Dead 2 over the past couple of weeks, so I don't know how good I'll become at it.
There's nothing suspicious about those bhops at all, if anyone thinks they are then they are just bad.
[quote=mr.deagle] For example, would the beginning of this video raise any eyebrows?[/quote]
You can have the coaster. I can hit that Dead Center 2 beginning ramp almost every time and you can never take that away from me! Never!
[quote=Derpduck]There's nothing suspicious about those bhops at all, if anyone thinks they are then they are just bad.[/quote] Thanks, though that only sort of answers the less important of my two questions. I don't want a mod to question the legitimacy of my run if I ever get good at bh in this game.
[quote="mr.deagle"]Thanks, though that only sort of answers the less important of my two questions. I don't want a mod to question the legitimacy of my run if I ever get good at bh in this game.[/quote]
You could always use a keyboard overlay such as NohBoard to show your jumps, although as I stated before, that won't 100% prove that a run isn't scripted. As long as you're not getting flawless hops throughout the entire run, which due to the low tickrate would be near impossible without a script, mods should have no reason to deny your run. I've hit that hop in your video plenty of times, and I'm almost certain I've had a run published with it.
[quote=Canterlott]You could always use a keyboard overlay such as NohBoard to show your jumps, although as I stated before, that won't 100% prove that a run isn't scripted.[/quote] I think an additional problem with NohBoard is because it's open-source, a developer could easily modify it so that it won't flash your spacebar again if the amount of the time that's passed since the previous press is low enough. This could lead to a video that looks legit until a bhop timing expert actually scrutinizes the jumps frame-by-frame; I don't think making that part of the verification process or requiring a keyboard overlay for every run is something that anybody wants to do.
[quote=Canterlott]As long as you're not getting flawless hops throughout the entire run, which due to the low tickrate would be near impossible without a script, mods should have no reason to deny your run.[/quote] So basically, like you've already stated earlier, cheaters have an unfair advantage as long as they only toggle on their bhop script at important places, e.g., c1m3 escalator, c2m1 slopes, c5m5 slope. A rule that disallows bhop scripts but not bhop itself doesn't seem fair to the people who've been doing it 100% manually so far.
[quote="mr.deagle"]words about why nohboard is shit[/quote]
That's true, but for someone to go through that much effort just to cheat a run of a shit game nobody really cares about would be stupid. That doesn't mean it won't happen, obviously. How about just not bhopping at all if you're that worried about your run being denied? There's literally no risk/reward to bhopping manually as it is, as the few seconds you save can easily be taken away by being hit by a common or something.
[quote="mr.deagle"]cheaters have an unfair advantage[/quote]
That's a bit redundant; that should go without saying. Cheaters have an unfair advantage in any situation, because they're cheaters.
[quote="mr.deagle"]A rule that disallows bhop scripts but not bhop itself doesn't seem fair to the people who've been doing it 100% manually so far.[/quote]
I don't understand how disallowing scripts is unfair to people who don't script. If bhopping in L4D was as consistent as say Quake or HL2, for instance, I could see a problem there. How would you suggest this be changed, by disallowing bhopping entirely, rejecting all runs in which someone jumps twice in a row? Should we make another category for each category in which bhopping isn't allowed, further cluttering the category list? Bhopping is a fundamental exploit used in many games, which means it can be cheated/scripted in practically all of them, as well. This is why all we can do is leave it up to the mods to decide, or just not bhop at all.
[quote=Canterlott]That's true, but for someone to go through that much effort just to cheat a run of a shit game nobody really cares about would be stupid. That doesn't mean it won't happen, obviously.[/quote] I doubt it would take that much effort since NohBoard is open-source.
[quote=Canterlott]How about just not bhopping at all if you're that worried about your run being denied?[/quote] My worry is exactly the reason for me posting here and hoping for a mod's response. I don't want to slow down my runs, and at the same time, it bothers me that the door is wide open for cheaters.
[quote=Canterlott]That's a bit redundant; that should go without saying. Cheaters have an unfair advantage in any situation, because they're cheaters.[/quote] I forgot to specify the part where cheaters can easily get away with it in this game.
[quote=Canterlott]I don't understand how disallowing scripts is unfair to people who don't script.[/quote] As I explained earlier, it's too easy for cheaters to get away with scripting.
[quote=Canterlott]How would you suggest this be changed, by disallowing bhopping entirely, rejecting all runs in which someone jumps twice in a row? Should we make another category for each category in which bhopping isn't allowed, further cluttering the category list? Bhopping is a fundamental exploit used in many games, which means it can be cheated/scripted in practically all of them, as well.[/quote] Those solutions suck, but they are at least better than making it easy to cheat. I currently can't remember any game where bhopping is disallowed, and since this game doesn't get much attention when it comes to speedrunning, I personally wouldn't want another category. Simply dropping the "no scripting" restriction, at least when it comes to bhopping, is the sanest solution I can think of, especially when a script is readily available here.
[quote=Canterlott]This is why all we can do is leave it up to the mods to decide, or just not bhop at all.[/quote] Before I make a decision on how I'm going to do future runs, it would be nice to have a mod's opinion on my concern.
The purpose of speedrunning is to complete the game as quickly as your skill allows, measured against other players completing it as quickly as their skill allows them. To automate an aspect of the game with an outside source, one that would create such a giant time margin as to make it an absolute requirement to use to compete in any way in speedrunning the game, to entirely remove a large portion of that skill discrepancy between players that could mean the difference between who places first, second, third, and so on, is just wrong. It is about completing the game on ¤your¤ skill, not how well you can use a script. Removing the rule to open up the main category in a way that requires using a script to compete would entirely kill my motivation to run it. Every trick and mistake made that influences the end time should be on my own input, my own skill in how quickly I am able to complete the game.
What is wrong with being a purist for the main category of the game? That seems the only way it should be run, modifiers are reserved for other categories, to give another way of finishing the game, whatever way that may be as they can range wildly from game to game.
The script should never have been written in the first place and the categories requiring its use should have never been made. As it is now, a tool was made to allow easy exploitation, handed to anybody that wants it with a sign saying "use this for an advantage!". It is being invited in and should be removed entirely to lessen the chance of anybody even getting the idea of utilizing it and the creator should be ashamed for making such a powerful exploit that accessible.
I don't see any solution besides hoping for the best, regardless of whatever fear you have that somebody, at some point, who knows when, would exploit it. Allowing it to be used freely, well, I already explained that and it shouldn't need to be said. Not allowing bunnyhopping even manually is even more impossible to police and still removes that skill from the game, although all things considered is probably the lesser of all the evils so far.
The way I see it, the leaderboards have been up for some time, and plenty of runs have been posted that really don't look to be exploiting the script. If it hasn't been a problem through all of this time, it isn't worth turning everything on its head out of a fear that at some unknown point in the future one guy or group will come into a game that isn't too popular to speedrun to take a spot not many people will notice.
Even if the script ¤is¤ exploited, considering how much somebody will have to conceal it, it will likely not make a large impact, certainly not to the degree allowing the script at all times would. I know "eh if they do it whatevs, won't be used much anyway" is another terrible solution in a theme of all terrible solutions, hence my saying it's been working all this time and to let it go.
In summary, there is no good solution, disallowing bunnyhopping in general is the least of the evils presented in my opinion, but it's been functional all this time and isn't worth a fear that at an unknown point it could be a problem who knows.
These are my last words in the debate, take them as you'd like. Just one Master's opinion.
[quote=TheMaster]The purpose of speedrunning is...[/quote]What you personally feel about the "purpose of speedrunning" and what "is wrong" in your book doesn't say anything about how easy it is to cheat, which is my primary concern.
[quote]What is wrong with being a purist for the main category of the game?[/quote]There is nothing wrong if each rule can be verified.
[quote]I don't see any solution besides hoping for the best[/quote]How is "hope" a solution for anything?
[quote]Not allowing bunnyhopping even manually is even more impossible to police and still removes that skill from the game[/quote]How is that impossible when video proof is required? Just watch for momentum-preserving/building jumps as you're verifying the run. It doesn't matter if bhopping requires skill; sometimes there is a cost to keeping a speedrun fair.
[quote]Even if the script ¤is¤ exploited, considering how much somebody will have to conceal it, it will likely not make a large impact, certainly not to the degree allowing the script at all times would.[/quote]It was stated in the OP that it is easy to conceal, and nobody has contested that. If you reserve the script for the huge time savers as I've already mentioned, then it will have a large impact.
[quote]The way I see it, the leaderboards have been up for some time, [...] it's been working all this time and to let it go.[/quote]So I should keep my back door unlocked because nobody's tried to break in through it yet, right? "It hasn't bitten us in the ass yet" is not a good reason to do nothing about it.
[quote]disallowing bunnyhopping in general is the least of the evils presented[/quote]That is the next best solution I can think of, even if it would potentially invalidate many of the existing runs.
Hey everyone, some minor changes to the rules - solely to clarify things/change wording, no rules actually "changed" (at least not in any way that will be relevant to 99.9% of people):
- The linked guide for demo recording is now in a new location on the internet ( 👀 ) and was reworked to hope
