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8 years ago
Tokyo, Japan

(I'm writing this directly to the forums and not the irc so that things that are written here can be referenced more easily.)

Recently, gael did a "GTA3 In-game 100% NG+" run and it got a misc category on the leaderboards. I don't think that said category is relevant or competitive enough to warrant its own category. I also don't understand why it's NG+, I don't think that the an in-game 100% run actually requires a replay that is recorded before the run (although I haven't watched the whole run). This way, the category goes against every other category on the leaderboards (all of them are non NG+).

Also, the category has less competitive potential than, say, Hooker% or 69% HP%, because of it being ridiculously long and repetitive for a misc category.

I'm not saying that gael's run is non legit or anything, I just think that it has no place on the leaderboards in its current form. So yeah, this should be discussed in my opinion.

As far as I know, AM was "invented" to be a practice category for 100%. However, the current route involves strats that are not viable in 100% (the Mike Lips instapass for killing Vigilante), and also, there are 100% strats that are not usable in AM because of the definition of the category (Gangcar Roundup instapass). Because of this, AM is kind of dysfunctional already, and as more instapass strats get found, this trend might continue.

There really isn't an actual problem with the category, but with new strats, it will lose its "traditional" relevance pretty quickly. Of course, it's a well established category and the definition is fine as well, and I don't really know whether it needs some changes since I'm not an expert, but feel free to give your opinion about this if you have one.

Since rolling the credits during Liberator or Wakagashira is theoretically possible (ask Nick), the Any% definition needs to be discussed.

As far as I understand, the current Any% definition does NOT end at the credits, in fact, it has nothing to do with the credits at all. In my opinion, this should most definitely NOT change. Rolling the credits in some random mission does NOT mean that you managed to beat the game.

Ending the run when you lose control when the final cutscene starts is fine, I think. Especially because (afaik) The Exchange is the game defined "final mission". And the fact that you manage to trigger the final cutscene of the game actually means that you beat the game. Wrongwarping to that cutscene at the end of Exchange would mean that you beat the game, but just triggering the credits does not make the run end.

So, we should discuss this matter before we can actually find the credits strat for runs.

karl__k likes this
Friesland, Netherlands

[quote]it will lose its "traditional" relevance pretty quickly.[/quote] AM never really had relevance to 100% anyways, since 100% is a lot more than simply doing missions. Runs like "all hidden packages" or "All USJ" are a lot more relevant to 100% practice than "All Missions" is IMO. (Or you can do 92% , which is a pretty short run but gives you almost all the hundo practice one needs.)

All Missions is exactly what it says on the can: All Missions. Most people who run AM don't do so because of 100%, they do so because of All Missions.

[quote]## In-game 100% NG+ ## [/quote] IMO a category becomes worthy of having leaderboards when multiple people do runs of it. It took the longest amount of time for "All USJ" to become a category on the vice city leaderboards, because nobody but overcooler actually did runs of it (unlike All Robberies or All Packages). Seeing as in VC more than 1 people actually did runs for it, I think its acceptable to have for VC. I'd be fine with removing it from the GTA3 boards, but since its already there bleh, why not keep it. I think Gael is persuasive enough to make other people do GTA3 IG hundo NG+ to compete with him. Just keep in mind for adding future categories that they actually need to be competitive. I personally think NG+ is stupid, but if that's what the majority will run for IG100%, then that's what it shall be. (basing this off of VC here, IDK about GTA3)

[quote]Definition of Any%[/quote] I looked up the code for GTASA as it was potentially possible to skip the final mission, and there is a variable in the final mission code that gets set at the end which basically means "storyline progression".

Quickly dove into the SCM for gta3 to look for something similar to what SA does, and there's this in CAT1_6818: 034C: shoreside_complete This doesnt actually do anything from what I've googled, but hitting this seems like a good definition for any% (similar to how 100% requires hitting all 030C). It occurs after the credits in The Exchange though. I'd say for the sake of what we've been doing in the past just end the run as the final cutscene starts, but if someone were to hypothetically find a way to instapass The Exchange, Id think this would be a good definition for any%.

Also in CAT1_6818: 0004: $FLAG_ALL_MISSIONS_DONE = 1 Obviously this flag doesn't mean what it says (since it will be set regardless of whether you did Marked Man, Love's Disappearance, Fuzz Ball etc.), but from looking at the context it seems like it means "storyline completed". Someone look up what this is called in the code left in the mobile version, it might be an even better definition than 034C.

Regarding Ingame 100% NG+:

- "Why is it NG+ ?" Ingame 100% category in GTA was created last year, after the duping discoveries (mostly in VC) people realised that you would get 100% ingame before completing all the 100% requirement and decided that the "real" competitive 100% category should be (and i totaly agree with) to complete all the 100% requirement rather than just duping your way up to 100%. But eidgod decided to make a VC ingame 100% segmented run anyway and to submitted it to SDA. IIRC, he hesitated between NG and NG+ and for some reason i do not know decided to make it NG (his run included 2 full segments only dedicated to waiting around). After finding out that Autocide gave twice the percentage and could be duped up to 26 times without crashing, I decided to make a proper route for it, a RTA route. Waiting around for ~5 and ~10 minutes respectively is quite boring, and being unsure about my duping consistency, i would have needed a safe marging of error in the waiting time, and wouldn't be optimal. Also I don't consider using "NG+ replays" is illegitimate as long as it's clearly stated and in my mind there're two 100% categories, the "real" one where you follow a strict set of rules and the heavily glitched and abused one where you use everything you have in your possession to reach 100% the fastest (I would have turned off frame limiter if i thought it would be beneficial, but since duping is frame based, it isn't)

But that's about Vice City, what about III ?

For GTA3, the only use of "NG+ replays" is limited to rampage start Vigilante and cancel the rampage immediately to do the Mike Lips' Last Lunch instapass it's saves making a replay, pickup a gun for Chunky Lee Chong and waiting for the rampage to end. I know those are minimal timesaves and it might seem not worth making the category NG+, but i went for consistency with the VC runs and with my idea of "heavily glitched and abused one where you use everything you have in your possession to reach 100% the fastest" Another argument i can think of is that a much more yolo route would involved rampage starting some mission a bunch of time (mandupe) with a NG+ replay going from location A of the portland AK rampage to its location B

- "Does it deserve a leaderboard for it ?" I don't know, all i know it that i consider ingame 100% as a valid 100% completion of the game and therefor the category isn't arbitrary as opposed to Hooker% and/or 69HP. Also 2 years ago GTASA 100% leaderboard only had 1 time and was considered ridiculously long and repetitive by most people to consider this speedrun. Similar things could be said about III and VC hundo. I would say that my time deserves to be referenced within our community, not because it is good (it isn't), but because it exists. And the only place for this is a misc category on the leaderboards

I will write something about AM and credits warp later.

[quote]I think Gael is persuasive enough to make other people do GTA3 IG hundo NG+ to compete with him[/quote] lol i think you are overestimating my power on people

Portugal

:CAT1_6818 0004: $THE_EXCHANGE_COMPLETED = 1 0004: $FLAG_ALL_MISSIONS_DONE = 1 0110: clear_player $PLAYER_CHAR wanted_level 0318: set_latest_mission_passed 'CAT2' // 'THE EXCHANGE' 030C: set_mission_points += 1 0164: disable_marker $COLUMBIAN_MANSION_MARKER 014C: set_parked_car_generator $SPECIAL_TANK cars_to_generate_to 101 034C: shoreside_complete 0051: return

In the original code, it's this part of the code

mission_cat1_passed:

flag_cat_mission1_passed = 1 flag_suburban_passed = 1 //PLAY_MISSION_PASSED_TUNE 1 //PRINT_WITH_NUMBER_BIG ( M_PASS ) 1000000 5000 1 //"Mission Passed!" CLEAR_WANTED_LEVEL player REGISTER_MISSION_PASSED CAT2 PLAYER_MADE_PROGRESS 1 REMOVE_BLIP maria_contact_blip SWITCH_CAR_GENERATOR special_tank 101 SUBURBAN_PASSED //START_NEW_SCRIPT credits_loop RETURN

So $FLAG_ALL_MISSIONS_DONE was originally "flag_suburban_passed"

Keski-Suomi, Finland

I also think that it makes sense to divide 100% in two categories in the way Gael described it. First being the "actual" 100% where you do everything required for a casual 100% completion, the other one being "get to 100% in any way possible". Two ends of the stick or something equally poetic and cute. I also think an NG+ category adds to the leaderboards without taking anything from there.

Also, this stuff's not gonna get faster any faster than people find stuff for it. It may just become "do this thing 144 times in a row" or it may go completely the other way round over time, it doesn't really matter. I really liked Gaels run from my weird-ass point of view and I hope others are gonna go for it too.

On the topic of removing NG+ categories, I like how NG+ any% was removed from Vice City without warning but we have to question whether or not we remove NG+ 100% from GTA3.

Friesland, Netherlands

NG+ Any% was a thing for Vice City?

So basically the game has two different flags for passing suburban, which IMO is congruent with passing the entire storyline (any%). It seems like a good definition should some kind of skip for killing Catalina be found.

guy did a few NG+ any% runs but they weren't optimised, i was making a NG+ route where i was taking as many phone calls as possible during mission but i gave up once the 2minute waiting time was skipped in NG with the discovery new japanese CP dupe

route doc if anyone cares https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N7jlj1G1wzN8_mJIcOMLkm1yeKl1F692aaoKmtCLX-Q/edit?usp=sharing

United States

Shouldn't it not matter if a way is found to trigger the credits in any way other than during 'The Exchange'? The timer has always been stopped upon the first frame of fade-out/control loss preceding the credits, while on "The Exchange", not the first frame of the video file that is the credits. That, to me, is enough to warrant a "credit skip" as worthless, concerning the Any% speedrun, unless a skip was found which is executed during 'The Exchange' and triggers an identical fade-out/loss of control, which precedes the credits.

Let's say that tomorrow someone found a way to completely negate the need to shoot down the helicopter, even though you still could, and all you had to do was run to Maria after spawning her in. Would skipping shooting the helicopter not be allowed because the end of Any% is defined as "...ends as soon as you lose control as the final cutscene starts after shooting down the helicopter on 'The Exchange'." I'm positive absolutely no one would feel this skip shouldn't be allowed, so that begs the question of what the true definition of the end of Any% is.

Personally, I feel, and this is for any GTA, the end of Any% is loss of control/fade out which precedes the credits, while on the final mission of the main story line.

Also, can someone explain what triggering the credits during an earlier mission does to the game/remaining missions/etc?

Portugal

"...ends as soon as you lose control as the final cutscene starts after shooting down the helicopter on 'The Exchange'."

This is incorrectly defined even as it is now. The conditions to trigger the cutscene are "Helicopter destroyed" and "Maria is following player". If a skip for shooting the helicopter was found, it could be just reworded to "trigger the final cutscene in The Exchange", or something along those lines.

"Also, can someone explain what triggering the credits during an earlier mission does to the game/remaining missions/etc?"

The credits themselves do nothing, so the game state would stay the same (other than having pretty letters on the screen for a while during gameplay)

United States

When I've referred to "credits", I was thinking of the final cutscene/credits combined, if that clarifies my thinking a bit. I guess I've always viewed the "credits" of a game as being a final cutscene that transitions into the scrolling credits.

England

I think that if a way to trigger the credits outside The Exchange was found that it should still count as Any%. If only for consistency with other speedruns, 'any%' is always defined as triggering the credits by any means necessary. If people don't like it then we can make 'Kill Catalina' or 'Beat The Exchange' the 'main category' for the game, but we shouldn't call it 'any%'.

"Rolling the credits in some random mission does NOT mean that you managed to beat the game. " - This echoes the main argument people when claiming that glitching shouldn't be allowed in speedruns. What happens if someone found a way to skip all of the game and only have to do 'The Exchange', would you say that it didn't count because you skipped most of the game and therefore you didn't really beat it? What about only skipping the half of the game, would that count? If we're not careful we may end up adding loads of arbitrary caveats to what you can and can't do to 'beat the game'. Having it as 'trigger the credits' keeps it unambiguous. I guess S' suggestion about memory values also does this, but it's not very intuitive - and we may run it problems verifying it. Credits trigger can always be verified by video at least.

Tokyo, Japan

"Wrongwarping to that cutscene at the end of Exchange would mean that you beat the game, but just triggering the credits does not make the run end. "

wrongwarping from literally any point of the game to that point where i'd like to define 'the end of the game' is beating the game in my opinion. what you might not realize is that 'rolling the credits' means literally that and nothing more. it's just fancy letters on your screen while you are doing Liberator, uninterrupted. if you could justify that being the end of the game, i'd be amazed.

reminder that this exists

does that looks like beating the game? i dont think so. and so far most people seem to agree that just rolling the credits is not enough. i personally think that having the any% definition involve "rolling the credits" would be more arbitrary than the current definition.

United States

I think the best way to approach this is to examine the state of the game after some action occurs. In the above LCS example, nothing has changed in terms of what the player can do with the remaining main story line, after the credits have rolled. Imagine if the same exact thing happened in this video, but the only difference was the player losses control and the final cutscene, of the final story line mission, plays, and then transitions into the credits, just as it would if you beat the final mission. Maybe only the scrolling credits get triggered along with the usual background scene for which they roll on top of. It makes no difference if you've lost control of your character's movement and actions while this is going on, that's not the point. You may even get teleported to the location which you end up in after these things play, but, again, this makes no difference if nothing has changed regarding the rest of the game after any of this has happened. What about possible outcomes?

Maybe all missions have unlocked and you can go straight to the final mission, just like the effect produced by whatever the actions are in Chinatown Wars. This is obviously acceptable.

What if all of the missions disappeared from the map and were permanently removed after rolling the final cutscene/credits or just the credits? Does it matter if the game thinks you've beaten every mission, possibly determined by checking the stats? You're left with no missions, so have you beaten the game? What if this same outcome could be created by performing some sort of glitch, unrelated to an early credit trigger?

Imagine someone claiming they've beaten the game simply because they've glitched the game and can no longer see or start missions. If the reason the missions are gone is because the game has been glitched and all missions have been completed, verified in the stats menu, then this should be acceptable for Any%, with the timer stopped the moment the glitch is executed. This is regardless of the glitch involving an early credits trigger. Now imagine the same thing, only this time the stats menu doesn't show that the missing missions have been completed. Claiming this should be acceptable for Any% is laughable.

Lastly, what about "the final storyline mission"? I feel if you seemingly "skip" this mission, but its disappearance is actually due to it being completed, verified in the stats, then you've finished Any%, even if you never see the final cutscene or credits. If the game doesn't recognize that it's been completed, then you've just performed a glitch which has screwed you out of completing Any%.

England

At the risk of comparing apples and oranges:

This is 'Any%' - It's silly and uncompetitive - loads of people have tied it - but it's still 'Any%' because it triggers the credits. The main speedrunning category for this game is 'Any% glitchless'. If something similar was found in GTA3 we can always make 'Beat The Exchange' the main category. I just have an issue with using the label 'Any%' if we're not triggering the credits because in every speedgame I can think of 'Any%' means triggering the credits.

Portugal

The video you linked doesn't trigger the credits via a glitch, it warps the player to the Hall of Fame room, which triggers the sequence that starts the credits. It's very different. In this case, the game marks the Champion League as complete, including registering your party to the Hall of Fame, then saves the game and starts the credits. The GTA 3 equivalent would be doing a glitch that triggers the final cutscene of The Exchange, which will trigger the credits as part of the mission script.

Edit: Also noteworthy, there was a TAS for a game (I think also Pokémon?) a while back that was submitted where the TASers found the functions that prints the credits and activated that function with Arbitrary Code Execution. It was rejected because the verifiers felt it wasn't "beating the game", it was just tricking the game into printing the credits

England

Better example:

This was the OOT any% route before the wrong warp to Ganon's castle was discovered (the reason the new route is used is because it's faster). Here the credits are triggered from inside the second dungeon, notably the actual credits scene was glitched but it still counted. This method of beating OOT lives on in the 'Ganonless' category

This is a TAS that executes the credits via arbitrary code execution and since it's also been done by RTA runners: http://tasvideos.org/2926M.html

just posting to say that the description on my LCS video says "This isn't a thing"

Tokyo, Japan

Could you elaborate? Is the vod edited?

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