Conclusions of FPS Cap tests and potential legacy boards (vote later)
5 years ago
New South Wales, Australia

After running at a 90 cap today and yesterday, I think I can fairly say that Trevor% world record is probably not beatable. I am not even sure if my 1:02:35 is beatable. The changes to FPS will likely result in approximately 3 minute drop on Classic%, making that World Record almost impossible to beat as well.

In discussions of the previous rule changes, we concluded it was viable to leave the boards alone due to the belief that the previous world records would still be beatable. I am less confident this time around that the present world records will be beaten. FPS doesn't seem to only effect cars, but general gameplay speed and loadings which all add up to losing multiple seconds each split. The extent of this effect was unknown previously, and is still hard to quantify even if it is more clear now.

My conclusion is either a legacy board has to be created, where the old runs will be moved, or the cap has to be removed and we just accept world record will continue to be beaten partly due to hardware improvements. A decision on this perhaps wouldn't be as pressing were it not for the impending release of RDR2. This will likely result in top runners no longer running GTA V, which will mean that world records will stand for quite sometime incongruent with the rules for new submissions (assuming the runs can be beaten at all).

I want to start a vote on the forums, preferably restricted to runners, over the following: What should be done in regards to FPS cap?

  1. Remove FPS Cap.
  2. Keep FPS Cap at 90 and create a legacy board.
  3. Keep FPS Cap at 90 and leave the leaderboards as is.

Can anyone recommend additional measures that should be added to this list of potential solutions for this issue (or lack of an issue if you disagree it is an issue)

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Germany

Eventhough I haven't run the game for some time now: If I ever wanted to push my time I'd like to have a FPS cap there so that I have a realistic chance of getting where everyone else is, instead of having to buy new hardware. If it really is such a big time loss as you describe(which I can't know) then I'd be for creating a legacy board but I also know how that may suck for the game when all of the sudden all 38runs are now "gone" and only a few of those are comming back as not everyone is an active runner anymore. Thats why for the overall health of the speedrun removing the FPS cap or making an even higher FPS cap where the times are beatable/comparable again might be better. Hardware will only become better in the comming years so if you look into the future of running this game, more and more people will be able to reach those FPS values.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Deleted
likes this
Victoria, Australia

completely ridiculous idea but could be a solution. what if you did something like adding 5 minutes to all classic%/NMS runs and 10 minutes to all 100% runs. and other additions to other categories. and then just start fresh from there? since the top runners (you, toriks, burhac and demetrius) are still lowering your times for categories, times with 5 mins added on can/will be beaten with the new rules. and gotten to a good time with the new rules. this also eliminates needing to create new categories on the leaderboard.

so this could work out. will take some time to get back to normal but in the end it could be fine no offence taken if you think this is stupid though :)

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Sweden

There should be no arbitrary time penalties.

Latvia

1

Welll i personally like to see 1 but i also have no problems if we create new leader boards which would have 90 fps cap. That would make separate competition for people with weaker PCs. Today i got good 1:03:23 Trevor% time on Classic% run which suggests its not impossible to do Classic% and get PBs but i need to complete some runs and do tests to fully judge.

Also changing rules every day is a joke. Needs testing before implementing. Next few evenings i will try to do some drives on highways and other roads Baron suggested me to test. Until then 90 fps rule should stay because this is becoming embarrassing.

So i am fine with 1 and legacy boards with 90fps cap

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Deleted
likes this
New South Wales, Australia

Its a fair point @illuminati7777 The considerations for 90 fps related to the ability to beat the old runs as you say, if there was a separate board, 90 fps doesn't have any significance over any other value. Just as an aside, the timesave you get with FPS isn't just from curbs. With the fps cap, even in prologue I was losing time before I even reached the car. Fractions of a second sure, but it was there.

The issue with the testing would be its complexity with very little practical benefit in the results. Without doing the exact same inputs on each test, having the the exact same RNG of traffic, and having the exact same fps fluctuations due to surrounding environments, determining the differences between FPS caps would be next to impossible. The differences would also not be constant in each setting.There would also need to be testing in all different forms of gamplay and on multiple forms of hardware.At the end of the day, we know the more FPS you have the more time you will save. The closer the FPS cap is to the FPS of previous runs the greater the ability people will have to beat the old records.

You are right no one gets consistent 90 fps and I would have the greatest ability to abuse a situation where no cap was in place but, I will be honest with you, the amount of shit I have receive for specifically trying to prevent that reality has shown me trying was not worth it. I am frankly sorry for trying. If the majority doesn't want an fps cap it will be removed and we will go on with our lives.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
New South Wales, Australia

@ToriksLV I agree that I rushed to have a resolution largely so that runs could be attempted as normal and be valid. The longer rules are in limbo the longer runs can't reasonably be completed.

What will such testing tell us? The ifruit app only impacted, at best, 0.2% of the run. Even a 90 fps cap would seem to massively dwarf that leading to the current issues. When I suggested this idea, 11 months ago and a few days ago at least at first, I was under the impression the impact of FPS was essentially just curbs. How many curbs do we even hit after all? I assumed we would have a similar situation to the Ifruit app and it would be resolved the same way. Testing has shown I was horribly mistaken.

Edited by the author 5 years ago

1

I don't think there's good proof for your claim as it stands. You have one dubious video where they don't follow the same lines. I'm thinking the same thing as many people are here: you're trying to create the optimal situation for you to get a WR. I also think that having you in charge of the rules right now is presenting a conflict of interest, and think you should consider handing it off to someone else. Just, stop digging to ruin other people's fun.

New South Wales, Australia

@a_jar_of_hair_mayo "I don't think there's good proof for your claim as it stands" Did you not watch the Broughy video? You have a collection of racers and speedrunners telling you "this is a thing". This is a well documented phenomenon, take a gander at google if the evidence presented so far isn't sufficient.

"you're trying to create the optimal situation for you to get a WR." You are on one hand claiming you are not convinced FPS effecting speed exists, but also arguing I am trying to give myself an advantage by limiting FPS. So...you think I think it exists...but you are not sure that it does? I have the most powerful PC. No one disputes that. How on earth could I be trying to create the most optimal situation for me when I specifically advocated for a situation where getting a new world record was the most difficult, that being on a FPS cap of 75? I contend it is only people who have put their head in the sand who would think as you seem to. Hell, one of the biggest issues for setting an FPS cap was still having the current world records be beatable at all...and I currently don't have either the Trevor% or Classic% world record ffs. Your statement may as well read "You are trying to change the rules to give you the best chance at world record, by making the current world record holders runs much harder to beat". Listen to yourself man.

"having you in charge of the rules " The rule put in place was one I didn't initially advocate for. If I wanted to increase my chances of world record I should have simply said nothing, 11 months ago and now.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
communistcustard likes this
Latvia

I just want to make sure that FPS rules are settled now and never touched again unless there is major new speed tech found. Whats with you not being able to reach certain fps. I wont do runs offline besides Trevor% and true any%. I had no intention do for FPS boost sake.

if i remove FPS cap and risk Complications error i could go as high as 170 without recording. With slightly less i guess. Other games have these fps rules but i dont know their specifics. Burhac doesnt seem to be able to get more then 80-90 on stream (no idea about offline) while i can hit over 100 and easier parts over 130. We need to ask Burhac to keep eye on his pace but he hasnt run as much as us. Demetrius could do it too. He knows trevor% very well but i cant seem to contact him anywhere

About my time losses, i loose 2-3 seconds until parking lot cutscene, my best was 8:27 in these 2 days but by the end of Trevor% i somehow managed to get decent time. Its tiny amounts lost but it is there. The explosion on 52 second is 0.5 lost which got almost every time. I could still get 2:40 but felt harder. After first hour cant say since today i couldn't focus due to this whole thing. I got impression it is possible to beat our times on full runs but cant say for sure, i will stream again only on Thursday and then whole week from Saturday. So i think lets keep it for like a week until more results come in.

EDIT: i will do Trevor% test runs offline with 90 fps cap too to see how its running against my uncapped wr splits.

Edited by the author 5 years ago

@DarkViperAU

I did watch the video. They did not follow the same driving lines. They're not worth comparing. There may be a speed difference in framerates, I'm not an expert, but I can see that it hasn't been proven with any accuracy or precision.

I think you're trying to make WRs easier to beat by invalidating the old ones by having them removed from the main board. That's the advantage I think you're trying to give yourself.

New South Wales, Australia

I think I am done with all of this @ToriksLV I have tried so hard to be fair to everyone and all I get is claims I am some world record hungry fiend. I am going to run this game for my own enjoyment, it will probably more enjoyable without the cap. If my runs conform to whatever you make the rules so be it. Fuck world records.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
communistcustard likes this
New South Wales, Australia

@a_jar_of_hair_mayo You understand there were two videos right? One very detailed by a guy who analyzes GTA V cars and physics for a living? There are also long posts on this forum for racing experts and testimonies from speedrunners. This is something we have known about for 11 months, the videos and testimonials focused on showing the EXTENT of the phenomenon, not proving it. No one else rejects its existence you can god dam see it watching Vods.

You understand prior to any FPS cap I have the best PC and thus could abuse it to get world records if I wanted? I get world record all the time, I have held all the world records multiple times for months on end. I have 5000 hours in this game. Do you REALLY think I need to rig the system to get a world record? Think hard. Holy hell i got two world records not a week ago. I could beat my own Any% and Any% NMS runs... my 100% run easily if I just wanted to say "Hey a new world record YAY!". I am only 30 seconds off the Classic% world record.

I will be frank, how fucking stupid do you need to be to think I am making rules to get world records easier when I pushed to ban the ifruit app which gave me an edge over literally everyone else? I am not in this for fucking world records, they merely signify my improvement. Every god dam time I say "This rule will benefit us", people will jump out of the wood work and claim that my 3.5 year dedication to this game is a farce so I can rig the system to gain stupid fucking '1st' images on a leaderboard. The incredible effort people will go to just to create a conspiracy rather than face reality is absolute staggering to me.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
communistcustard likes this

Look, if this is important to you, I'd recommend finding a way to prove it. Using one video, that doesn't follow the same driving lines, is not a good piece of evidence. When Illuminati prompted you to look into it further, you made the scope so huge that it couldn't be tested.

"The issue with the testing would be its complexity with very little practical benefit in the results. Without doing the exact same inputs on each test, having the the exact same RNG of traffic, and having the exact same fps fluctuations due to surrounding environments, determining the differences between FPS caps would be next to impossible. The differences would also not be constant in each setting.There would also need to be testing in all different forms of gamplay and on multiple forms of hardware.At the end of the day, we know the more FPS you have the more time you will save. The closer the FPS cap is to the FPS of previous runs the greater the ability people will have to beat the old records."

But here's the problem, you haven't proven the baseline that FPS is what's making the impact. You have not proven to any degree "we know the more FPS you have the more time you will save", and that's what you'd need to substantiate here to convince people. You are talking about invalidating people's runs/moving them off of the main board on a topic you claim has been proven, and yet the proof is so small and insignificant I can't see it as justification at the moment, which does make me think there's another motive.

If this is important to you, set up a scenario where you can test it. Use somewhere perfectly straight like the airport runway, use mods/commands to freeze all NPCs or something, and then see how it plays out.

Hungary

For now, I would vote for 1, since it seems that it's the sane thing to do. However, before settling on my final vote I'll do a full classic% run today with the 90 fps cap to see the effects for myself.

Latvia

I am not here to stir things up, i run for enjoyment too and tired of this aswell. Well i agreed coz we both have gave up to other in some rules. I am fine with whatever rule. I asked a lot to Online community about fps to understand better. If we uncap then it stays like that. There arent many that run or will run at all and i dont think someone will blow cash for GTA V speedruns which makes easier for uncapped so if your fine then we can go back to uncapped and run for fun. One Trevor% could ruin so much :( I mentioned already discord and apologized if i insulted in any way :)