Keyboard use should not be allowed in top 10
6 years ago
Illinois, USA

Really nice to see things happening! Thanks for everyone getting involved and figuring this stuff out. As a community, I feel these kinds of topics are very important.

Västra Götaland, Sweden

Another update: I implemented the console/emulator subcategory separation

100Ton and twin0mega like this
Italy

I already rejected virtuanes runs in other games so my vote is:

  • ban gotvg emu
  • not separating categories
  • allow keyboard
ShuriBear likes this
China

Finally the new rules comes, that's a great improvement for the NG3 speedrun runs. And I still have something to say, it may be ignored. Keyboard can simplify fast wall climb operation on both ninja gaiden nes series. After the xiu's run on gotvg was verified Chinese player think gotvg is acceptable so they run Ng nes series on gotvg and submit their runs. About gotvg advantage, it exists in NG1 and NG2 speedruns too. For example in gotvg Left+Right wall climb also works on NG1. And the Keyboard also have advantages with fast wall climb. So I have a suggestion that :

  • gotvg should be banned in both Ng 1-3 speedruns
  • to avoid keyboard advantage, separated console/emulator categories in NG1 and NG2 too (I don't know whether I should say these things here, the Ng3 forum, but it has relation with our discussion)

.....and some roast to myself in the end, I feel troublesome when speedrun on a console so I send it out ,the new rule means that I have to buy a console back ,shit.....

OldschoolRich and twin0mega like this
Italy

Like i said, i would never vote for separating console and emus, i would just remove runs with illegal inputs and illegal emulators. I started running on emu and i always used an NES controller, to be as legit as possible. I didn't have a console because i couldn't find a good setup and it was too expensive. This separation will discourage every potential new runner because they could only compete with themselves and not with console runners.

Tbh if this separation was a general rule, i would have not even started speedrunning two years ago.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
100Ton, Twintail_Nami and 2 others like this
Illinois, USA

I think emulation is fine. But for top 5 placements, especially top 3, I feel every single game should be run on real hardware. I may be old-fashioned or too much of a purist on this element. Speedrunning is an expensive hobby/ passion to have, both in time and money.

I hate seeing legit runners penalized because others take advantage of the system. But there is simply no easy solution to these topics, which is why they are often avoided. I agree with 100Ton and would go even further in saying that I think keyboards and specific emulators should be banned globally, on all games. But everyone has their own thoughts on this, so it will never happen.

So we come back to what the easiest, most diplomatic solution is, which was the most popular opinion by the community. Which up to this point, was category separation. Is there a better solution? Other than just removing Xius run entirely, which I think should be done anyhow, I don't see one.

Italy

well, my ducktales run (2nd place) was on emu, and trust me, it was the result of weeks of grinding and practice, and there was a WR battle with endy that people enjoy. I wouldn't really like to put that on "the other board". Also, new runners will always be discouraged, considering most of us started like that. Not just me.

Blubbler got the SMB wr on emu, and the community was ok, they put some rules and he respected them. I would find another solution for other games, leaving NG3 as it is for now.

ShuriBear and twin0mega like this
Stockholm, Sweden

Thanks for the feedback 100Ton :)

I hate to see that you feel this way Garadas, and I hate this whole situation.. Which is why I was kinda done with this game because I feel whatever we do there's gonna be something bad coming out of it :/

Now for the followup question for the community: kokorowolf said that Xiuluowentian used banned emulator and inputs that are not allowed... Do we reach out to Xiuluowentian and see what he says? Do we take down his run if we get ahold of him and get it confirmed about the inputs?

twin0mega likes this
North Brabant, Netherlands

Well if he used a emulator that was banned BEFORE he submitted I think the run should be removed. If the emulator was legal at the time it was submitted then I think it should be legal. Same goes about the inputs.

China

@garadas21 I can fully understand what your feeling, because I am same as you. I speedrun on emu with controller and make it same as console as much as possible. Running on console is troublesome for people like us.

To tell the truth, I really don't want to see the separation happen, I'd like to see that we really want to separate is the keyboard and something like gotvg advantage, NOT the EMU/CONSOLE, I promise that I can do the same things which in my 1244 run on console, maybe the separation is not unfriendly for us.

I couldn't like the current situation, maybe not the best solution. If there have better way or some rules can solve that, I'm glad looking forward to it happen.

OldschoolRich and twin0mega like this
Italy

Ok Just to clarify i am talking about my old runs, i use original console now. Btw imo xiu's run must be taken down for sure. Illegal emulators is enough i Guess.

twin0mega likes this
Sweden

Regarding the original post and the 1st bosskill not being possible with controller. Well. Just watch Beco do it consistently. I do understand and also agree on a lot of points from different sides in this discussion but I'm not a fan of calling things impossible just because it's hard to replicate it. Felt I wanted to point it out since it was a big part of what started the entire discussion.

Illinois, USA

@EndySWE I agree 100%, I made that accusation without fully understanding the sword strike timing in NG3. After talking with many of the top NG3 runners, I've got a better understanding of things, and since have been able to replicate it without issue. So that part of my argument is completely invalid and just me being unfamiliar with NG3. But all other points, are still valid.

And I agree that Xiu's run should be removed. Regardless of whether the run was submitted beforehand or not, the fact Xiu has admitted to kokorowolf that he used inputs that are only usable in that particular emulator. The actions we take should be the same if we found out someone had done something else to take advantage of the situation and game. I think we need to talk with Xiu and find out 100% for sure before doing so.

But in regards to the Console/ Emu separation, I started this post to ban keyboards in top 10 placements as keyboards have no place in the NG series. There are too many advantages and unknowns. Whether or not we keep the categories separate is up to the community as a whole. I think as of right now, it's a huge improvement. But that is due to the issues revolving Xiu's run, as the WR holder.

Records of any kind, whether 1st place or 50th place, should be based on skill alone, not splicing, advantages, or anything else that cannot be done on real hardware. Real hardware is the gold standard for what is allowed and not allowed. If an emulator allows it and console doesn't, then that run needs to be removed. If it can be done better or faster in any way on some platform that is not a real console (emulator, VC, etc.), then that run needs to be separated into its own category or removed. And yes, I get that all emulators behave differently and all versions of consoles do as well. But you all understand the meaning I'm getting at. Typically, an emulator provides a DISAdvantage, unless it offers special button inputs or is being used with a Keyboard, hence why I want them banned for top 10 placements.

I have a high respect for all the runners including Xiu, but that alone does not change the facts or change how runs on SR should be handled. Runs that are on SR.com will be there for all of history. And people will be going against those runs for years and years to come. It's not fair for runners to go against a run that has advantages like that, whether that run is WR or not.

That's my 2 cents

Edited by the author 6 years ago
HurricaneMixer likes this
Russia

I will leave my opinion here anyway.

Ok, I am trying to run this game ("u" not "j") a whole year from time to time for own pleasure. I am playing on emu, using nestopia 1.41, I guess this emulator has more pain than advantage over console (since its a bit laggy, sometimes eating inputs, and showing you wonderfull patterns 50-70% of time). And I am playing on gamepad, since its more challenging and more hard to do. So i guess its pretty fair to leave nestopia 1.41 gamepad runs in "common" category, since there is no single technical advantage for such runs. Try it yourself, I think its even harder than to do it on console.

You strictly figured out 1 single emulator used on wr and banned it (without banning wr), but if I will use Mesen tomorrow (and slightly speed up game without visible changes, i remember you can do so there) or Nesbox (and will show masterpiece wallclimbes, i remember you can do so there), what you guys gonna do? Dont make next runners that will come to cheat in emu category

Since everybody understand that WR was a little bit cheated, you guys moved all emu runs to category with cheated wr, so I guess this category is dead now? Or its a "cheated" category now? There are only 5 runs there: top 1 banned emu, top 2 Messen I guess (that emu can be banned too at some point cause it gives you some hardware alike controlls), I feel like I am ripped there with my fair nestopia/gamepad runs. Its not encouraging and fair at all. I am using emu but and have no advantages there. Since wr is probably cheated and there is no way to cheat like this again, how am I supposed to beat it lul? So you encouraging guys like me "use strictly keyboard / find new ways to cheat with inputs" in this new "emu" category or what?

Why you just dont separate keyboard and gamepad runs and add a rule "no left+right or no up+b on 1 button" if you feel that keyboard has an advantage over gamepad in this way? Cause not all the emulators give you such input advantages as this "gotvg". Without input advantages normal emulator is a piece of laggy c**p.

There are tons of NES games on speedrun.com without such separation, I feel like you guys just did it to throw away cheated wr from common to another category not to have a responsibility to totally ban this run from leaderboard. And the new runners like me (and that will come after) are supposed to beat "cheated" wr in emu category. Nice news, dudes.

I dont want to pay 400 bucks to run a single game and have my run not in "cheated" category and have a nice video of it. I love this game yes, but wont do it.

I really think you should change there something. Changing it to "Gamepad" / "Keyboard and other controllers" and adding a rule "no left+right or no up+b on 1 button" for "Keyboard" category will be more fair. Sorry for my bad english, mistakes. P.s. What if the runner with fightstick will come to "console" category?

twin0mega likes this
California, USA

"There are tons of NES games on speedrun.com without such separation"

Not all games can be treated identically when the nature of input complexity differs between them. Some games demand much simpler inputs and therefore keyboard play wouldn't provide an inherent advantage of any kind, but the reasoning behind the change is that it does for this game.

twin0mega and ShuriBear like this
Russia

"the nature of input complexity differs between them" You are taking words of whole text withouts understanding, seems its smth you dont want to understand. Look at the ng1, ng2 runs, and I dont talking only about all the ng series. Look at SMB, castelvania series etc. What we all, guys that using emus, and playing/runing just for own pleasure/using gamepads with emus, should be banned or moved to other category, just to protect somebodys single wr, I respect Richie, he is totally my favourite game wr holder, I always knew the current wr was cheated in someway, but its not reason to kick out other emu runners cause of only 1 runnner moderators wasnt able to check normally, ok? "nature of input complexity differs between them" And once again, ok, if you read like a , whats the ** difference between my run on nestopia 1.41 with gamepad and console run? Have I any advantages there? Of course not! Its smth you just "oh dude its to smart for me to talk, I just wanna talk how hardware is really cool here and cant be changed with emu" "nature of input complexity differs between them" And you dont seem even casual with nes games, cause you talked *** just to feel you right at this point, every nes game especially nes platformer game has a way to cheat with inputs while runnning on emu, but its not the reason to kick out normal emu runs with cheated to another category. "that it does for this game" I know what it does for this game, believe me, and I am totally understanding it, and you dont, cause your catch 1 sentence of this whole text, I hope not for licking smbds **, and the thing that I dont want to even submit my new fair gamepad emu pb to this piece of cr*p, to cheated category, with 5 runs, its something that this category does not deserve while there cheated results/cool emus. And dude try what I am trying to do on the same setup, and only then open your mouth, since you dont understand what are you talking about.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
California, USA

You're responding to an argument that I never made. My post said nothing about emulator play, only keyboard play. No one suggested that your gamepad + emulator usage denoted cheating in any way (as only one specific emulator was linked to unfair advantages, and you don't use it) yet you're acting like you've been personally victimized by the leaderboard separation.

"I dont want to even submit my new fair gamepad emu pb to this piece of crp, to cheated category"

So you'd be fine with the category separation, if the suspect run is removed?

"every nes game especially nes platformer game has a way to cheat with inputs while runnning on emu"

I don't know why you think this strengthens whatever argument you're getting at, but it's also plain wrong, or at least misguided. A keyboard advantage/disadvantage most certainly does not affect all games equally, and depending on the severity, the topic is at the very least worth discussing, as it was deemed in this case.

"And dude try what I am trying to do on the same setup, and only then open your mouth, since you dont understand what are you talking about."

I'll open my mouth whenever I damn well feel like it, thanks. This is a public forum that you chose to post in, discussion is the very reason why forums exist.

twin0mega likes this
Illinois, USA

Apologies for the long-winded novel below, but I believe it's important for everyone to understand that we, as a community, are not trying to make some exclusive "console only" group just to kick others out. The only reason any of this is being discussed and actions are being taken is that certain unspoken rules have been broken that threaten the fairness of speedrunning NG3. And these are the solutions we've come up with to resolve them. I think these solutions should also be applied later to all NES games in general, but that's just me.

Let us also not stray too far from the topic at hand, which is to make speedrunning fair for all NG3 runners. I am in agreement with @AshuraBusted that not all games benefit from a use of Keyboard. Which is why it's important we stay on topic of NG3.

@FunC_Controls I agree with many of your points, which is why I said we should ban keyboards in general. Emulators, in general, provide a slight disadvantage to the player due to the input lag. However, the problem with using emulators arises when people use them for an advantage, like running them slightly faster than 60FPS, using keyboards to allow specific inputs, etc.

How do we control this? We do our best as a community to control what can and can't be used, to minimize the possibility of cheating or having an advantage. Thus, removing keyboards, banning specific emulators, and putting up rules to enforce fairness. The problem with that is that it's so hard to find out when people break the rules. How do we know if someone is using a keyboard? How do we know if they're using a specifically banned emu? Or any 10 other things that could be used to have an advantage or cheat. There is never a definitive way of knowing this unless every single run submitted has a video of the runner playing the game in a 3rd person perspective, which is out of the question.

I agree that leaving in Xiu's run is discouraging for all current and future runners. It's the main reason I started this post. I don't want to compete against someone who can "cheat" by using easy inputs when I'm over here struggling to get good at it the real way. That's not right and not fair and very discouraging. I respect his skill and the time he got, but the run should be removed regardless.

I also acknowledge that separating the categories, in general, is discouraging because no one would want to run in the emulator category since it would be considered the "meme category", but what other choices are there? Keyboard and controller? That would be treated as a meme category as well. Banning keyboards would, in my opinion, eliminate a need for separate categories altogether, so long as the other rules were put in place and Xiu's run was removed.

With that we still run into issues with the majority of the community being against banning keyboards. What steps are we to take to resolve the issues to make everyone happy? In my opinion, we stop focusing on monetary values and what makes everyone happy and do what ultimately is the fairest for everyone and best for the community. Speedrunning is a hobby, profession, and career for many. It is a fun hobby, but it is also a record, for all of history. It can be expensive in both time and money. Certain sacrifices have to be made to provide the highest level of fairness overall so that records are earned through skill, hard work, and dedication alone no matter where you place on the leaderboards. That has always been my stance and it always will be.

It sucks to exclude people because they use an emulator or keyboard or guitar or whatever, especially when they are doing their absolute best to be as legit and authentic as possible. In a perfect world, we would have one category and everything would be fine. But in this world of cheating and unknown possible advantages, we must do the best we can to define clear rules, which includes banning specific things, to minimize the opportunities people have for doing so.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
HurricaneMixer likes this
Stockholm, Sweden

Sorry for all the inconvenience. Honestly I feel that the leaderboard was better before when not separated. We tried it and after reading all the feedback I feel like the separation have more negative things to it than positive.

My personal wishes is that speedrunning would be done on original hardware, but the reality is that's not how the speedrunning community works and therefore I think the leaderboard should go back to the way it was.

What I think we should do now:

  • Revert the leaderboard to normal
  • Take down Xiu's run by default for using extra mechanics.
  • Enforce the rules of proper EMU with input display, no movie window showing etc.
  • Allow keyboards yes/no?
twin0mega and FunC_Controls like this
Russia

If there is an emu problem, you can make a rule to capture whole window of emulator, with title and borders, and if there is smth that can be used to make run easier, just dont accept or ban a run. Normal runner can always rerun following the rules with same result or even better.

For example, these are SMB rules about emulators, seems fair enough to use: "Turbo/Autofire and left+right/up+down are banned. It's also highly preferred that if you're running on emulator to capture the entire window of the emulator, including the window border. Using savestates to the title screen is prohibited. You need to use the reset function on your emulator or console and the reset must be shown on the video."

You can also add "a+b/a(b)+up(down,left,right) is not allowed" to be sure nobody can find hole in the rules there.

You can also add Messen (hardware settings) and Nesbox (automatic left+right) emus to banned, I am sure they can be used not in good way. Dont know about others.

I think move keyboard runs to other category would be nice and fair for everybody.

Thanks for understanding, Richie.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
twin0mega and OldschoolRich like this
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