Having seen oddtom's recent any% (i just realized how stupid it is to say any% in this game..) full game with chimps run, I feel that it is important to have a discussion about probability tools like the one used during that run, as well as the route mapper which was also used. Let's talk about it here and see if we can come to some consensus on the subject.
Current concensus: Allow it in runs, either make a new category called "no tools" or have runs specify whether or not tools were used as a sub-category that people can filter through. We can discuss that too.
(separate post to make it clear that this is now simply my opinion)
It seems to me that the use of anything outside the game is usually frowned upon for RTA runs. The one exception I am aware of is the tool used in Banjo Kazooie to predict the answers to Grunty questions during Furnace Fun, though (iirc) even this one requires the runners to go out of their way to learn information before it is useful. The tools used in Gizmos and Gadgets seem to just tell you where to go by reading the game memory or something.
I can see these tools being a good addition to the run as a separate category (like any% - tools allowed) for a couple of reasons. First, it drastically shortens the run, making it way easier to get runs in. Second, it reduces the often frustrating RNG that you have to grind though. I do not want tools in the same category as a tool-less run however because there is also skill in determining the best path through your own observations and I don't want to see this skill become completely useless. Furthermore, I would prefer to have any% stay as the "tool-less" category and have "any% tools allowed" as a separate category because, as I said earlier, tools are typically not allowed in RTA runs.
Thank you oddtom for making it clear that you were using the probability calculator and route mapper in your any% run. If you could share the information on how to use those tools (maybe here, maybe in the guides section) so that others could use them in their runs, I'm sure everyone would appreciate that.
I'd definitely have to know more about how the tools were working. If it's reading RAM values to give you information, I'd say no. If it's essentially a customized calculator and notepad that you input data into yourself, I'd lean more toward allowing it.
Not that other games' communities should necessarily influence each other, but a similar example that comes to mind is Metroid Prime (or was it Prime 2?) for which runners used a homemade maze solving program for a randomly generated maze. They'd have to put in the first couple segments of it, and the program would figure out the pattern from that and show the solution by the time the cutscene was over.
Hey, yeah, no problem. The program works strictly off of user input, and is no more than a glorified calculator. Whether or not it is "tool-assisted" is the question, I think.
I've actually been throwing numbers into a database for weeks before I started getting results that kinda sorta work, and the one I submitted still had flaws. Honestly, I just wanted to see whether or not it could be done.
See the thread post I made here: http://www.speedrun.com/Speedrunning/thread/0l7sz/1#uw84t
As an added note, I find it interesting that I'm not the only person on the planet that knows about / cares about this game. It makes me giggle a lil' bit, heh.
If I ever get this thing stabilized, I'll make it open source and link it to github or something so you guys can get a piece of this action too.
Based on the responses to the thread you started in the general forums, it seems like most people don't care all that much about it. Also, if it requires manually inputting the information, then it is a step further away from just doing what a robot tells you to do. Given what you say about the tools and the feedback from the general community, I'm now leaning more towards simply allowing it for any%. I mostly run this game once in a blue moon in a non-serious manner, so I don't think I'd ever use the tools, but I would love to play around with them at least a little.
I've also thought more about how to differentiate tools vs no tools and we can either make separate categories or have them as sub-categories under the same "any%" banner, kind of like some games have for emu/console or pal/ntsc or amiibo/not or whatever. As a single category though the times would be WAY different but given that very few people even play the game, it doesn't really matter.
Based on what I've seen in other games, whenever a new player comes through with a new glitch / idea that drastically changes the times, either it is adopted by all the other people in that group or a new category is made. For this game, though, I think the categories would be more like the "We just play for funsies" category and the "Wow this guy needs to get a life" category, lol.
I know this is a very old thread, but truthfully I badly want the tool used for the world record because I'm honestly curious to run this game! I loved this as a kid, and the idea of tackling it sounds awesome!
I'd like the tool too, but I guess we have to wait on oddtom for that one. Hopefully it gets uploaded at some point.
