as a man of the people, i will speak for the people and monkeys this new strat: LAME SLAMS TABLE i have come back from the dead to tell everyone how i think this new strat is dogshit i believe this strat is a GLITCH. my proposition: old runs (the ones before this MESS) must be in a new category called ANY% GLITCHLESS where you do NO SKIP of ANY KIND the MESS that has been created must be quarantined (at least 6 feet apart) in a separated category called: ANY% this includes early vine, vine skip, and the new ghost vine skip what about the original glitch category? fuck it (actually just make it its own category again) what are everyone's thoughts? which strats should be considered glitches? how should the categories be organized? i call upon smloader to answer these prayers (btw im not actually angy the all caps words were just memes) tldr: read it

Can't believe it's time for meme game leaderboard politics but here we go:

I'm not entirely on board with the current way the leaderboard is setup either. Personally I think there should be a glitchless category like you proposed*. There should also be a "no major glitches"-esque category that bans the fruit skip because there's definitely some interesting stuff involved in vine skip and this new stuff. And finally there should be any% (what used to be glitch). And while on the one hand it does make sense to have a glitch category for easy, medium and all dungeons, from a gameplay perspective they're extremely redundant.

I obviously have a bias here considering I lost wrs due to the new strat, but I think what I proposed makes more sense than the current setup and is future proof in case of new tech. (I don't entirely get why "no fruit skip" is it's own thing either, since vine skip changes less to the gameplay than the new trick does. And what happens when tech gets discovered that's faster than vine skip? That would currently make the "no fruit skip" category pointless).

• Maybe the quick retry should be exempted from the ban to prevent the main leaderboard from getting split up, then again I'm not sure how many runs actually use this, as it is slower than optimal.

The category that used to be "Glitch" is Unrestricted now, and the way it's organized now is much better than it was before. I feel like what is currently "No FS/VS" could be renamed to No Major Glitches. I don't think the game would be good if each category had 4 subcategories, so adding a Glitchless category in the game's current state doesn't really seem to be a good idea. I think No Fruit Skip is a good category, but it needs a better name. Basically it should be something that says that skipping vine climbing is allowed, but I think NMG + Vine Skip is a really arbitrary sounding category name, so calling it something else would be good

I think the gameplay between Glitchless, no vine skip, and vine skip are different enough to each have their own categories. The tab (unrestricted) glitch could also be moved to misc categories to reduce clutter, since it's not exactly the most entertaining category. My proposed names are simply Any%, Any% Glitchless, and Vine skip. These names are self explanatory and not very confusing so I think they would work, but tell me what you think.

Tldr: Any% Glitchless, Any% (AKA No vine skip), Vine skip then the Tab glitch moved to misc categories.

Or maybe not tab glitch to misc, but maybe it's own category just like it used to be.

I can largely agree with what you propose Burchase, my one concern is that potential future discoveries might cause problems, and creating a new category every time new tech is found isn't the best solution.

Can we set up a community vote of some kind? Is there even such a thing as the faf community lmao?

If new strats are found then we can discuss it again later, but let's be honest this game doesn't have that much potential for more massive skips lmao

There's really only a few of us, so a vote wouldn't be that useful imo. I want to hear matthritis and motor's opinions on what I suggested though.

One more thing, once the categories are decided, which one should be the main category? I think the one with the most runs should be main, which would be Glitchless.

Glitchless should definitely be the main category because it's like 95% of all runs.

I forgot to ask before but should the quick retry 'glitch' be allowed in glitchless? It used to be allowed before all this happened. I'm unsure myself. It's very minor and only saves time on an already suboptimal run. It's more of a quality of life improvement (particularly for medium/all dungeons) than a timesaver. However it is still technically a glitch.

i agree with burchase, basically about everything he said. glitchless should be main category.

I personally think the way the categories are set up right now is fine, but I think No VS/FS should be No Major Glitches, and No Fruit Skip should be named something else. Having "Glitch" as a category I think is just dumb and splits up the leaderboard in an awkward way. I get that it's doesn't have interesting gameplay, but having them sorted in a different way seems dumb. The main category should stay what it currently Easy, No VS/FS because it's just the best category :)

I understand your line of reasoning Motorjam, except why you'd have "no VS/FS" and "no fruit skip", over one of them along with glitchless (or both). Glitchless just makes more sense as a category than "category where glitch A and B are allowed, but not C" and "category where only glitch A is allowed". And from a gameplay standpoint it makes just as much sense as "no fruit skip" (as in glitchless isn't more similar to "no VS/FS" than "no fruit skip" is).

The glitch category discussion just comes down to if you have a bigger problem with a somewhat awkward looking leaderboard layout or with there being redundant categories (easy and medium have the exact same gameplay, which makes AD just doing the same thing twice).

I'm fine with a Glitchless category being added. I think the best way to make a "Glitch" category would be by adding a category named "Fruit Skip" that just allows you to do fruit skip in either Easy or Medium, and just not having an All Dungeons category for Fruit Skip. From there all other categories ban Fruit Skip, then we could have Any% (Currently No Fruit Skip) No Major Glitches (Currently No FS/VS) and Glitchless (new category) The main question is; do we allow the trick that lets you draw a vine early in Glitchless? example: Personally I think it's fine, but I could see the argument that it's not in the "spirit" of Glitchless.

Definitely don't allow that in glitchless. If we're gonna have glitchess, it should be without glitches. (except maybe the vine regrab for reasons I mentioned earlier, but I don't think it'd have any significant impact on the leaderboard whether it's allowed or not anyway).

re: glitch/fruit skip; isn't your suggestion just to revert to how it was before all this, except renamed? If so that's the same thing we are arguing for. Or do you want there to be separate fruit skip categories for easy and medium?

(also I'm not sold on calling anything any% that isn't the fruit skip/glitch category, because any% should be the "anything goes" category imo)

This is what I think we should have If anything, I feel like No Fruit Skip could be removed entirely, since it doesn't really have interesting gameplay, and it mostly relies on luck. More so for Medium than Easy, but if we remove it from one, it should be removed for both. Any% doesn't have to be misc, but definitely shouldn't be the default category. For grabbing the leaf early, I don't really think it's a glitch, it's just grabbing the crayon an obviously intended mechanic, just earlier than you can click on a fruit to draw. It's an exploit, as it's an intended mechanic working properly. However, the strategy used in the top 4 runs in No FS/VS is definitely a glitch, as it's using an intended mechanic that isn't working properly (the next monkey climbing the vine you drew on the previous screen) Either way, we'll have to make sure that if we add a Glitchless category, to correctly identify the runs out of the top 4 that use glitches.

I can agree with that category selection. I don't really care either way if there is a "no fruit skip" / "vine skip" category or not, but if Burchase and matthritis want it, I'm not opposed. I'd say glitchless should be the main category, as it has most of the runs (they technically qualify for NMG too, but they make more sense in glitchless).

As for the early vine drawing; it's not an intended mechanic. What you're doing is using the crayon hitbox from the previous stage for the next one. This is why if you used this hitbox on stage n, then you can't perform the trick on stage n+1 (and why you can't perform it on stage 1). It's an oversight, they forgot to disable the crayon hitbox when you start drawing from the fruit. It wasn't intended.

@matthritis @Burchase @ItsMaximum Thoughts on category changes?

I like the idea of NMG, but I also think that people are correct in saying all of the strats create different enough game play that they should be acknowledged somehow. Unfortunately we need legacy routes and bans (in fetch a fruit, of all things) because the OG glitch has been and will likely always be the fastest, so a blanket any% is kind of silly. I know I'm not too involved with this game anymore, but I think that the new start is cool and deserves its time to shine. Maybe we should do it like Max Speed, Snaking, and Space Flying in F-Zero GX, where the category is the same but has a filter on how it was performed. i.e. keep the difficulty categories but add filters of strats used, minus the tab glitch, and you can only pick one. That's the way F-Zero does it, a progressive series of bans. Max speed you have to use max speed settings where snaking is impossible, snaking has space flying banned, and space flying is unrestricted. That way, the gameplay can stay diverse and interesting, and like 120 people's runs don't fall onto a board no one looks at lmao

just my 2 cents

I like loader's solution, keeps the leaderboard looking clean, and there won't be any categories with only 2 runs. (Still on board with the earlier discussed suggestions though, if others prefer those)