-Final Remix- general speed discussion (rules, strats, routing, etc)
5 years ago
Barcelona, Catalonia

Mapped every single fight in the run (ideally) to route food correctly: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hiP6v_aCoiHQlUxDvFGWjAHpMhuONBOQ7v5a6Fsopqo/edit?usp=sharing

Assumes that Rare Metal farming only takes 1 chain, average luck for brand-required walls (2 fights to max) and no Reaper fights

From the 2 available runs, since I don't really have time to test it myself, at Pi-Face's Cap Neku had 80-81 BRV. This means that you could skip either the Tonkotsu Ramen or 3 Soft Serves for Neku and still probably be ok.

I don't know how random BRV from fights work but it's probably not too reliable. So ideally the food route for Neku should either be

Tonkotsu + 6 Soft Serves + BRAVE+ (750 + 1260 + 20000 = 22010 yen) or Miso Ramen + 9 Soft Serves + BRAVE+ (680 + 1890 + 20000 = 22570 yen)

Both could have a chance of not meeting the 75 BRV requirement for Pi-Face's Cap, but the second would be faster if that is met. The safe alternative would just be first option + 1 Soft Serve, which would always put Neku over 75

Canada

Tutorial fights don't digest food or add EXP/PP, no use having them in the doc

Barcelona, Catalonia

Week 1 tutorials don't, and they don't really matter either way, but week 2 and 3 tutorial fights (as in, introductory fights to the partners) have results screens and so Neku can digest stuff during them. Fusion tutorials don't do that, however, and it's why I removed them.

Canada

Looking at the chart, the ideal food run for Beat would be BRAVE+, then 2 ATK Capsules. You can afford that if you skip getting Tektite for Joshua Fusion 3. But that saves so much time against Sho... hm.

You should remove the W1 tutorial fights in the chart for consistency. Start at W1D3.

Beat should also get all 3 of his ATK stickers: 1 on D2 and 2 on D5. Yeah, everyone says not to get the ATK stickers, but this is a speedrun and we don't care if we burn Scarletite. +3 ATK on Beat is a significant +6 damage per hit.

Miso Ramen is poor for Neku. It means he equips Purple Sneaks and Biker Jacket later in the run, so that's lost time. Also, with Neku requiring +3 ATK for +1 damage with a 35% efficiency psych like Shockwave, using ATK food isn't a good idea. I think Tonkotsu Ramen + Soft Serves is optimal. Neku wants that Biker Jacket equipped ASAP.

Actually, Miso Ramen is just poor in general and only works for Shiki W1D3 because Hot Dog digests 1 fight sooner, and you can buy them on W1D5. With ATK Capsules being 6 bytes for +2 ATK, it's the best choice, but it's expensive.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Barcelona, Catalonia

I feel like Joshua's lvl3 is probably gonna be essential to get considering how generally slower Taboo fights in this version are, and Leo Cantus is an already slow fight by itself. Skipping it without a very solid pin deck by W2D7 is gonna be hard to route in. Beat attack stickers are not that much of a detour really, so I don't see any problem getting them with the spare Scarletite.

As a side note, I enabled comments on the food route, so make sure to put any ideas in there :P

Canada

I'm probably going to focus more on the DS version in the future, as I actually can no longer play Final Remix. Borrowed a friend's Switch to play it and have no intention of running what I feel is the "inferior" version. But I can help out with theory through calculations.

I'm almost certain that massing ATK for Beat is the way to go. He could have 56 ATK after getting Negotiator and the 2 ATK stickers on W3D5:

10 base 7 San Francisco 12 Negotiator 16 King Pendant 1 Purple Sneaks 3 ATK stickers via story 3 ATK stickers via shops 4 Double ATK Capsules digested

In Ghoul02's run, Beat had 21 ATK at that point. Doing more than double damage with Beat would save a great amount of time, plus power up his fusions so that a lv3 may possibly 1HKO Tigris (if it doesn't glitch) and skip phase 3.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Texas, USA

I care less about Tigress (fight is crap but I'll never lose it. For now, I'm wondering if it's even worth the 26 second risk for the level 3 given that the damage only goes through 1 in 4 times it feels like. It sucks because if the damage goes through, I've skipped three phases of the fight.)

However, that does sound really nice for Uzuki and Kariya given those fights potential to be a time bomb through either dying or them standing out of the arena and spamming projectiles at you, especially since fusions don't even do a third of their health.

My one other concern with the build is that it might make it much slower to build meter for random fights which has been generally the faster way to clear them but given that you can carry a level 1 over, perhaps the ideal is to lead with a level 1 into cleanup that builds a bit of meter? Still unsure.

Canada

Neku would still be wearing Biker Jacket/Green Warm-Ups/Purple Sneaks, so that's +10.5% sync per dual blazing CC hits. With Beat wearing Brown Baby Tee (+1.5%)/Nylon Waist Pack (+1.5%)/Green Warm-Ups (+1%)/Purple Sneaks, it would be +14%. So charging would require about 33% more hits to hit the same amount as the sync setup, but I think the damage output more than makes up for that.

Not sure about what should be in Neku's 4th clothing slot if it's not Naraka. But before the Anguis fight, you could transfer King Pendant and San Francisco (or buy a 2nd San Francisco) for extra oomph.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
England

did another run

Observations: Masamune evolves into Nenekiri so yeah use that. But Love Me Tether can also now evolve into Sweet Talk Tether with BPP, and that pin is an excellent choice, good for lockdown, good for meter build, hits lots of stuff at once so it's a choice pick for the difficult Uzuki/Kariya fights and the last two fights, generally I think it's a much better choice than Meteor Magnet.

Cure Drink also proves largely unnecessary over the run. Fusions get used for panic healing more than Drink does. As a safety for the Uzuki/Kariya fights sure, but otherwise you're either using Fusions to heal or aren't even close to kicking the bucket. In this light, I'd put Love Me Tether on over it so it can gain levels instead and evolve into Sweet Talk Tether sooner.

OJ/House Blend/Hamburger aren't really necessary. Buy Hot Dogs instead for Attack for Joshua. And saving money across the rest of the run means it's possible to grab an ATK Capsule for Beat when you pop by Shibu Q-Heads on Week 2 Day 6, my run managed to get another pair of them digested for Neku and Beat which got bought in Week 3 Day 5 but that assumes you get a couple random Reaper battles on Day 6, which you probably will a lot of the time but don't actually want.

there were decent stretches of the run where I didn't really have anything to feed Neku and co though for want of 6 byte food that actually makes any meaningful difference, Sync is just way less important in this version. And buying OJ just to feed them something is just wasting time and money for no palpable gain given how fast you build meter in this version.

i still haven't really worked in anything concerning an ATK focused setup for Beat but given how much money you're not doing anything with at that point in the run I also think it's something to look into. I'll probably give it a try on my next run.

As far as what to do with Neku's 4th item slot if not Naraka. Could just leave the Nylon waistpack on? That way you'd have 12% meter build and you'd save a lot of money from not buying Narakas since they're like 11,000 yen a pop and I'm not sure the benefit derived from letting Joshua have one is worth the 38,000 yen it takes to get the ability for the thing if Beat isn't going to use it at all and if it's not really mathematically worth for Neku? it seems more prudent to save the cash for Beat's ATK Build if that whole angle pans out.

[quote]I don't know how random BRV from fights work but it's probably not too reliable.[/quote]

It's levelling. Every level gives you 1 BRV, there's nothing random about it but it can vary a bit because of fusion multiplier.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
England

also hahaha I just checked my run back and Level 2 fusion whiffed twice on the second phase of Tigress for no reason

that fight is fucking broken lmao

Canada

Material fights:

  • Only do a single decaraven 4-chain on W1D6 if possible, as the wall only requires 3 rare metal, which are used later to get the biker jacket. You're moving the farming fight to W2D2.

  • When W2D2 begins at Scramble Crossing, set difficulty to hard and set level so that drop rate is EXACTLY 5. Do a 3-chain with 1 of the small "frog" noise symbol FIRST and 2 of the small "raven" noise symbol. If the first fight does not have 2 green crabs, flee and try again (there will be 2 green+1 red, or 3 red). This is the last time in the game that decaravens appear without detours. At exactly 15 drop rate, this does two things: 1) 90% chance each decaraven drops Tektite (!!); 2) 22.5% chance that each green crab drops ¥5K. You want this to fail so they drop Pop Pendulum. Getting Tektite here means you don't have to quest for it on W2D4, saving ¥30K and lots of rare metal. The Pop Pendulum drop saves fighting for it later on W2D3. I am doing this 4-chain for my DS run, and it'll work here too. Fusion increases drop rate so don't use it.

  • Check rare metal amounts here because you would've gotten extra from Cornix. If you don't have enough rare metal, use this area on normal difficulty to get what you need.

  • Neku doesn't need to eat food after ramen + 7 ice cream + BRAVE+. Save time by not feeding unless sync is at 0 and you're about to do a boss fight.

  • Nylon Waist Pack's ability only works for the partners so no point putting it on Neku. I think we should just go with San Francisco, which is the ATK +7 hat at Wild Boar Udagawa on W2D4. Biker Jacket/San Francisco/Green Warm-Ups/Purple Sneaks looks OK.

  • If you manage to get 5 extra Tektite from the W2D2 ravens, consider upgrading Biker Jacket to Patchy Biker Jacket (ATK +21) on W2D5. Requires buying 2 Durable Leather at Shibu-Q on W2D4.

  • Skip the Funky Shades/Definitivo Chili Dog sidequest suggestion I had and just outright buy 3 Sparkling Silver on W2D4 or W2D6 if you're going for King Pendant. Remember that it also needs 6 Rare Metal.

  • Test with a complete save to see if Goth Bondage Coat on Beat puts you in SOS. If not, then that's an ATK +27 top with no downside. Otherwise, the Beat ATK setup mentioned in earlier posts should work.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Barcelona, Catalonia

set difficulty to hard

Yeah that's not gonna work for standard Any% (in Normal), that Tektite is not a required drop. I don't see that farming session being worth it either way, you're gonna lose more time doing it than you could save, even with perfect luck on the drops

Canada

If switching to hard isn't allowed, that's OK. Each raven symbol has 3 ravens instead of 2 on W1D6, so you get more rare metal anyway. By doing the fight on normal instead of hard, you get the equivalent of 1 Tektite per raven symbol rather than 3. By integrating the Pop Pendulum fight with the Rare Metal farming on W2D2, you skip the W2D3 Pop Pendulum fights.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Barcelona, Catalonia

Added a co-op category per request, putting it in misc for now because I'm trying to make versions not show up there.

Other than forcing 2 players rules should be the same, 1p2c can stay as Any%.

England

wait why is bumping the difficulty /up/ a problem wtf

Barcelona, Catalonia

Mostly because of consistency, an argument could easily be made to allow Hard to be set since it makes fights technically slower, but if in turn you go back to Normal for the rest of the run then you're not really getting that penalty.

I wouldn't have a problem allowing it if everybody was ok with it really, as long as Easy is banned, but idk if it'd be too significant of a rule change.

Canada

Yeah if people want to run on hard, then let them run on hard. Opens more options. Adamantite is only available on hard, and there is maingame Adamantite clothing. (Whether or not they're worth it is up for discussion.)

I agree that easy is bullshit though because the Remix easy difficulty multiplier of 3.75 is quite frankly baby mode.

Note that hard on Remix is 75% of normal (0.9375), while on DS it's 61%.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Texas, USA

I completely disagree with disallowing hard. We already bump it to hard for the scripted loss to Sho, and the category is it has to be on normal or higher unless Easy is required for a drop. If putting the game on hard makes it faster, it is on a difficulty that is normal or higher so it’s fine. I don’t see the “consistency” argument at all. I’m pretty sure it’s even worded as such; I’ll double check. Heck, if that’s the case then my run is void; I accidentally got a reaper transition encounter with the difficulty set to hard that I won.

Texas, USA

Okay text was changed since I worked with Eekcast for rules which is a bit frustrating. Regardless, my point stands. There is no consistency issue with saying normal difficulty or higher unless playing the whole game on hard is faster at which point you start discussions on if arbitrary categories for normal are worth creating. In fact it’s less rules, clearer and easier to understand if combat should be fought on Normal or higher; you only ban something if it would cause a negative effect on the run, runner or hardware. This does none of that and accomplishes the goal of a run that does everything but set the run to Easy mode and demolishes bosses.

Texas, USA

Also, again, 1p2c is not a sufficient differentiator. For better or worse, 1 person is not sufficiently different to coop to where they are different “categories”. It’s also not enforceable. Do they have to have a webcam showing it was only one person? A mic? If people want to do 1p2c (I do) it’s a really easy thing to keep track of but there is not a clean way to separate them so they should be on the same leaderboard.