Here's my take: With Misc categories I feel that challenge mode should also be moved to a category extension mode as the game does not actually take this into account like It does with AMS and also from the fact that it's a much shorter, less speedrun friendly in a sense category. As for NG+ I feel better about keeping the code legal because it makes the run itself noticeably more fun (after all, that's why we're here). I don't feel like anyone has missed BK2, but I can understand separating the 2. For the plague challenge mode run, I feel it would also be a good idea to put previous versions of the game of different categories on the extension board, that way, we don't feel bad about cluttering the main one. I don't personally like the idea of all bosses, but I wouldn't mind it being on the extension board. I like the All Feats idea, but I really don't like the idea of it being only on one file. I also think exiting to the main menu should be legal. I can not think of a reason it should not be.

I agree with your stance on Horace not really belonging on the leaderboard and with your concerns with NG+ cheat code. I really don't like that we'd go with allowing music sheets to be collected for Shovel Low% just because the current wr collects a single one, whether or not that single one is equally as easy to avoid as it is to collect and was picked up due to a misunderstanding of the requirements of the category.

I, for one, am in favor of banning the NG+ cheat code in the main leaderboard, for plague at least. With how it is now you have no option to mess around with your equipment loadout (like getting less arcana, or even using a color code) because you're guaranteed to lose a bunch of time to BK2.

I also agree with making a category extensions page and shoving Horace into there.

I dunno why you'd make showing the credits for low% and hundo optional. There have been times where I thought I was done with hundo and realized it was a fake run because I missed one thing. Making it required will force people to double check.

I am for these changes as well.

The rules for NG+ were not intended to discourage people to do the run without the code. When the leaderboards were made there was...one active runner for Shovel NG+. At that same time the regular difficulty received the benefit of less map encounters if you were under a certain time. This was a huge boon, and most of us around agreed that NG+ was fine to use the code because there were so few runners and the code seemed to encourage more people to try it. We kept it the same for Plague and it honestly wasn't until later that I realized that it skipped the Black Knight 2 fight. So we left it as is.

That said, these rules were not meant to be set in stone. They are a product of their time and should be updated if the community at large wants it. I do think having a misc category or something for the code would be neat because it is still a fun run to compete in.

I think there should be a way to display obsoleted runs, regardless of the reasons. For the instance of Plague Challenge mode, someone worked hard for making that time and we should still have some way to show appreciation for it (and any other obsoleted runs.)

Custom Knight... I'm torn on this one but cannot articulate the argument for or against it being listed as a main category right now.

Removing runs that are no longer on the current most patch is fine with me. Shame as it is to lose Peanut's run but it can still be viewed in regard to Plague Knight Challenge mode. I feel like Shovel Knight should be a "current patch" run game for all categories. Anything that would provide an advantage on an older patch should be obsoleted or removed.

I'm definitely for NG+ not allowing the code that skips a mandatory map encounter for Plague. I don't think even the 100% file code should be used since that still is a cheat code and could then potentially allow some map encounters to be avoided. Everyone oughta get used to just making a 100% file. It should be fun to do that anyway right? ~_^ And this would lead to the most even playing field. IF someone by chance just wants to run NG+ we could make a save.bin for steam and keep it handy that has a 100% file of Shovel, Plague, and Specter so they can just download it and do that. Any complaints about having to do all that to do NG+ and they honestly should play a different category..

So the cheat code for no encounters feels weird to me. Those are parts of the game even if it is annoying sometimes.

I agree with all these rules.

I think the rewrites are good for the most part. The Shovel low% thing is weird, I'd exclude that from the rules and instead put a mod note on all the runs it applies to. What is the purpose of not allowing quit outs in 100% only? I don't really get this part.

I'd be in favor of the category extensions board and moving the proposed runs there. For the Plague Challenge mode run, I'd just remove it. Challenge mode is already a niche category, I don't think anybody would run a category of an older patch, so having a board to show of a single run seems pointless. The cheat code prevent overworld RNG, correct? If so, I don't think a new cheatless NG+ would really be ran and therefore there shouldn't be a board for it, but if people are interested in running it after all, making 2 subcategories for the regular NG+ is the way to go in my opinion. I get that is it more "pure" so to say, but I'd really like to avoid empty or almost empty boards, especially in the main categories.

For all the console exclusive stuff, I propose we leave it on there, but make it misc. in every case. So for Shovel Challenge mode, having a misc. subcategory (makes it so the subcategory is hidden at first) for the Battle Toads challenges is the way to go. On the same page, I suggest we move back Custom Knight to misc. It's really irritating having a console exclusive category on the main boards, especially given that it was ran by only a handful of people and hasn't seen activity in ages. It's also really silly having 3 (soon 4) character subcategories for every category, and then for Any% and only Any% it's one more. This one really really bothers me.

Regarding the new categories, All Bosses sounds cool and I could really see that being popular. I hate having empty boards on a game, so I don't think All Feats should be on the main leaderboards, as it will hardly be ran, if at all, certainly. This could work well on the Extensions board though.

Also, if we end up keeping the Horace stuff somehow, I think moving the 3 categories to one category with 3 subcategories is the way to go.

Oh I just read the hundo rules, I need to object to the no quitting rule. I can understand having a rule that says Spectre isn't allowed to skip the credits, but for Plague hundo I've definitely had to quit out of the Phantom Striker fight.

A better way to word the rule imo is "you must go through the credits" or something similar.

I agree with eric on the 100% ruling.

I do agree with the Shovel low% rule, I am saying it shouldn't be put into the ruleset and instead just added as a mod note to the runs it applies to. It's not something people that want to run the category need to know, since it doesn't apply to them, and therefore shouldn't be included in the rules.

I'm not opposed to All Feats in misc. in concept, my concern is that it might not be ran at all. I really don't think we should have boards that see none (or close to none) activity, it just clutters the leaderboards. It's the same reason I'd propose to remove low% Co-Op, I don't think anybody is gonna run that. Especially for Custom Knight, I don't even know what Custom Knight Co-Op low% would look like to be perfectly honest. For the case of All Feats, I guess we can try it out and see if people do want to run it, and if that is not the case, remove it or move it to extensions.

In general, I don't think we should mindlessly add categories to the main boards if it isn't a category people really want to have. We already have so many good and diverse categories, which is one thing I love about this game. For instance, we already have a total of 12 main categories (soon to be 16) that all play completely different. Most games have a handful at best. And that is not counting all the misc. categories.

Regarding old runs, I can see why you want to have them somewhere, but I think we definitely shouldn't have a full board dedicated to just a few runs. Saying that we can downpatch the game doesn't mean that people are going to do it, let alone that we should promote people to do it and run on an incomplete version. I believe there is a way to add a variable to the run and then sort by that variable. You could add a variable to McPeanuts' run so it appears at the bottom of the leaderboard, but it still appears I believe. Just had a look at it and seems to work, but I didn't want to make any changes so I couldn't test it fully yet. I believe this is what you mentioned in your section on NG+ anyway?

For NG+, I'm definitely not looking forward to resetting everytime duck knight get's in my way after Pridemoor, that sounds like actual fucking hell. If people want it though, I agree with your method of doing it.

The thing about Custom Knight, I can see where you are coming from but I really think it does more harm than good. Weird to only have one of the 4 main categories having that extra variable, and it being a console-excluisve barely ran category it shouldn't be a main category to begin with in my opinion.