As someone who doesn't really know anything about this game I apologize for posting, but wouldn't it be sensible to include all skips and glitches in any% because usually in speedrunning any% means to complete the game as fast as possible without using external cheats(like touching RAM or gamefiles outside the game). So no matter how annoying or hard the skips/glitches are, they should be included in any% regardless.

Also its understandable to run the categories this way, but if this game gets more attention people will question this same thing in the future, so it would be ideal to set the categories like in every other game on this website where any% is the fastest category.

Also since this game is very limited in terms of categories, its seems a bit pointless to divide any% right away.

Hi there !

May I say a word or two about this whole thing ? I look Another World activities of Speedrun.com in the shadow since a long time even though I never submitted my run on it (I have my reasons for that, maybe I'll talk about it because this conversation seems to be a good exemple of the problem with this website), and I'd like to share my point of view about that discussion, since apparently you guys make me talk =p

First of all and if we want to be serious with categories, WE HAVE TO separate the different versions of the game, period. There's no possible discussion about that. Let them be together is equivalent to accept Snes runs into the same category. You would think that I overstate but the only difference is that speed variance between 15th and 20th is softer. In the end the reality stays: every version of the game has its own speed so classify them in the same leaderbord is inacceptable.

Then, if you want to be really neat with the category section, you can't let PC and console together neither, for the exact same reasons. In fact if I wanted to be really annoying, I would add that you could have categories to 20th Anniversary for almost every console even if it's the same version of the game. PS4 version suffers lag from time to time for exemple, wich is weird because the 3DS version is much more stable (probably a bad portage on the sony console), and on the other hand PS4 runs cinematic faster than PC does. I agree it would be very annoying and complicated to make an entire section for every version of 20 anniversary, differences remaining anecdotic, but at the very least you should separate Console and PC, It is obvious that they don't run the game samely, that's why we usually don't mingle PC runs and console runs, no matter what game it is (you're on speedrun.com, just check any game with PC/console portage case and you'll see it always the case). It is basic knowledge at this point. Categories are made precisely for that reason: to not compare times for runs who are not played in the same gaming conditions, it is the very meaning for them to exist in the first place.

That being said, I saw few things in the conversation that are wrong, allow myself to correct those.

-"many (of the skips) seem to be very rng dependant and essentially frame perfect" => Okay, you can't just say that, it is not true at all. As TimmyAkmed said, there's no rng for those technics (he even described the few sections concerned by important RNG), and I'm sure he'll agree if I say for both of us that we don't pretend to do frame-perfect tricks. Yet I can execute all of these skips as much as I want, so does he. Some of them are difficult, most of them ask to "know the timing", NONE of them are frame perfect, far from that.

• "many of the timed cannot be done on console, or are near impossible" => Well... No :/ If you really insist I can record that on PS4/3DS/Snes but just trust me on this one. All those skips can be done on console, and I insist about the "ALL".

• "very rough compared to PC" => It is only true for the skip over the jail. You have to perform a really fast half-turn to dodge the laser and be able to pass before the next one kills you. It is indeed easier to execute those inputs with a keyboard, yet it remains totally doable on console. As for ALL THE REST OF THEM, there's absolutely no difference between console and PC, as the asked inputs don't benefit keybord rather than classic controller.

-" most runners as you can see prefer not to do the skips" => That's a little presumptuous from all of you to say. I could agree with you if this game was very popular, but looking at the runs on the leaderboard it is not difficult to say that most of the runners didn't know the game very well, didn't do any research by themselves or in internet to find tips & tricks and probably never saw my run or any of the latest TAS. Damn it, the last one even breathes before leaving the water part... And I'm sure I could find few exemples in every of thoses runs, prooving that they just tried to play the game fast without making any research on what was the actual "optimized" path. A good exemple is the fact that ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE OF YOU kills the first INNOFENSIVE guard in prison instead of just pass through him, wich does not require any particular technic except running...

"Still took time to learn the strats and it's never going to be fully consistent and if it is for some? Water skip will never be. NintendoHardGamer said himself it's solely based off of RNG" => I indeed said that but what's your point here ? I'm not sure to follow the idea...

"The only way I agree with that (wall skip) is if you hit that trigger for the next checkpoint and you force suicide" => Wait a sec here, who said that "Save&Quit" strats aren't allowed anymore ? Because it is nothing but that. I'm sure no one have a problem with that technic in classics like Metroid NES (just one exemple between thounsads) so why here exactly ? Because you can't do it in all versions of the game ? Well it is another thing that would be solved by better category layout, but certainly not by forbiding a technic who has its place in good old Any% of 20TH/15TH anniversary, even if we can consider that a "save and load" run needs its own category.

"Not to mention it also got into GDQ" => It was also the case in 2014 by UraniumAnchor.

" If you need any tips on this game or you plan to start running it feel free to message me and I'll help ya out" => Considering that he learned from me all the latest technics, I'm pretty sure his PB is better than yours even without making a clean run. But I'm agree that his intervention was rude so it's only fair for you to answer back x)

Okay enough with quotations. I now have a question, just to be sure to understand your logic Brandooates. Are you really defending the fact that it's important to put the "No skip" category on front of the stage to stimulate new players and bring them to run the game ? Are you saying that the latest route would be too tough, plus there's an hard RNG skip (wich is true) who could demotivate runners because they would think that they won't beat it so they wont make a PB ? Because if it's the case, I won't be as violent as Ectoplasmus with my words but I can't help but having the same feeling that you're searching a way to keep a category making you first. You totally confessed that you didn't try those skips on your run because you found them hard to realize (because console etc, as if). What if they were simple to perform ? Would you still defend the "intended path" category for new players, or even think of it ? Let's reverse this logic: you're basically saying that you're doing that for the community to grow. So are you saying that if all of the players didn't like a certain part of the game because it's hard, long or just ugly, it would be possible to simply erase it from speedruns so "speedrunners can be more numerous" ?

I'm just trying to show the nonsense of this logic. "Most of runners play like this" really shouldn't be an argument for making speedrun categories. Categories are foremost defined by the game itself. Most of general categories are already known by everybody and work with every game. Sometimes, certain games have such specific mecanics that players imagine some weird categories for fun, but Another World is not one of them. Any% is the only instinctive logical category. There's no reason for a 100% or a Low% as there's nothing to collect on a way or another. If you're creative you can play a AllEnemies% or probably a NoShield%, even difficulty% as it changes the speed in both 15th and 20th. But I'm sorry I don't think the "Noskip%" is relevant at all. It's just reassemble some any% glitchless without any attempt to do all the "complicated" tricks, not because it gives a different and unique speedrun experience of the game like 100% or nokill% or any known category can do, but just because they don't even know the tricks or dont wan't to risk them. There is no "speedrun logic" explaining the creation of such a category and it's really hard to imagine that you would have created it if you succeeded to perform all the skips with consistancy.

... Wich leads me to the main problem of this website and why its system is broken. A runner shouldn't be able to be his own judge and administrator of the game he plays. OF COURSE he will accept his own run, of course he will create his own categories and jutify his choices for the way he runs the game. With popular games it is not a problem, there are enough active people to assure a clean moderation, but with little/forgotten/unknown games, it just allows people to do what they want with nobody to discuss it (nor that I think that of you in particular).

I really don't want to be mean, I can feel how proud and happy you are to be invited to GDQ just by the way you're talking about it, and I wish you to make a good run out there, to be happy with yourself and most of all to have a f*cking great time. BUT about this "no skip" category topic I really can't agree with what is going on here. Speedrun is not about being on top of some ranking, it's not about making a world record, it's not even about making a good time when you really think about it. The time doesn't matter at all. It's all about making a good personnal performance. You learn the game, you learn the tricks, sometimes you even discover new ones, then you practises, you keep on the work, as Samuel Becket said "Try again, fail again, fail better", you improve yourself until you reach that moment when you have this unique feeling to have accomplish something great, something special at least for you, an award for how hard you worked. The record, the chrono, the ranking, even the popularity, they're just consequences to that. If you make them your main goal and not just results, then you didn't understand what speedrun is about :/ And sadly the whole Speedrun.com system drives players to want nothing but their name on top of some list, no matter how bad their performance is. Did you see the incredible World record of Alone in the Dark ? It is litterally a walkthrough ! In fact I'm pretty sure you can find walkthroughs on youtube with a better time. How in the world do you think it was accepted as a speedrun ? By who and for what reason ? I think we all know. I'm not saying that you're dishonest and I'm not describing you here, I really think you want to do things well, that's why you accept discussion. BUT, I also think that in this particular situation you're trying to defend your interests. If new players come here (and they will as everybody consider that this website is a solid reliable source), they'll think that the "no skip" path is the good one while the "skip" one (who, once again, is however the only run here responding to the definition of an any% if you consider that "no skip" is an added restriction) is some kind of weird not-really-legit path. And they'll stay stuck with this route in mind where there's almost no possible optimization without even trying all the latest tricks who can allow them to express themselves with the game.

Ahem this is much longer than I wanted it to be... Sorry for that. I guess you can just consider that I'm an old fashioned speedrunner who learned his letters on SDA, wich makes me kinda strict and boring with rules. But I stay my positions: separate PC from Console AND separate the different versions of the game. For the sub categories it's up to you if you really think it serves the community but, again, this game does not seem to have particularities asking to imagine such specific categories.

Also, I assumed it was mainly to talk about this subject that you contacted me earlier this day, but if I'm wrong I'll be glad to talk with you ^^ Discord seems to be apropriate, so let me know if you still want that.!

At this point I think Brando's not even sure he wants to showcase this mess at GDQ. Yes, your post is pretty rude at parts and you could have been a little more concise. And I REPEAT: 100% was a thing! It was a stupid thing!! We've tried to find a replacement for it. Perhaps we should just go back to calling it 100% even though... really, there is no 100%. Or just get rid of it at this point, I'm beginning to not care.

I argued that a case could definitely made for separating console and PC, and I'll admit I wasn't 100% sure of the differences between the 15th Anniversary and 20th Anniversary ports, or that the skips could be reliably performed on console. Apparently they can, so great! I still haven't seen anyone do them, and yes I'd love to see a video of you pulling them off on console.

I actually understood some skips to be totally RNG dependent or tricky because of things you specifically said. In your YouTube comments, for example:

'It's totally random :p i dont duck, it s just the effect of Lester's fall. I just played until the game let me pass x/'

'It took me months and months of training and tears to get such a result so don't be so hard with yourself'

'Anyway, the only tip that I can give you about the 5:04 section is... To be patient. There's nothing to do except hoping that the game won't kill you. It is pure RNG. I did it again and again until the game lets me pass without me dying (or just sucking) in the 2nd part of the game. It took me 408 tries among wich the game let me survive only 8 times x/'

So... my point is, that if those kinds of comments aren't meant to make me believe that some of the skips are just damn near impossible or RNG dependent... what am I meant to be believing?

You're an amazing runner and we were and still are in awe of your run. But Brando's just trying his best to clean up these boards and it isn't easy, and I don't think he deserves such a hard time about it.

Hi there. Thanks for your input. You've laid out your arguments very clearly, which is very helpful. Some of what you've said I agree with; some of it I don't. Allow me to expand on that:

1. Separation of versions - This is something I overlooked at first, but since recently runs have been submitted on versions other than the 20th anniversary edition I'm going to separate them. They won't be another category, instead a variable. This is due to the routes taken being the same, and with the same ruleset. If somebody wants to view only the runs from one version, they'll be able to filter for this.

2. I'm going to pass over your quotes from earlier in the thread because at the end of the day, it's irrelevant. Whether or not something is true about how the game works seems a bit off-topic from the rest of this thread.

3. Skips/No Skips separation - Of the 14 runs currently on the leaderboard, only one uses skips. You state that what is popular shouldn't define a game's categories, rather opting for standardised categories which most games follow. I'm sorry, but I disagree fundamentally with this. What people enjoy running (what most runs opt to do) is EXACTLY what should define categories. I agree that 100% and low% don't make sense for this game, and while you could view the skips/no skips separation as arbitrary, that's why it's a subcategory rather than its own category. There's nothing I hate more when viewing a game's leaderboards than to see categories with no runs; made purely because it "made sense as a category". If nobody wants to run it, it's not a category.

4. Self-verification - I agree 100% that it should never happen if a game has more than one active mod. My runs are self-verified for a good reason; I was given super mod privileges by an SRC admin after a few weeks of waiting. When looking at the runs awaiting verification, there was one over six months old! It was also faster than the listed WR at the time. Clearly both of the other mods had no interest in looking at the game anymore, so I reviewed all of the runs by myself. When I added Brandooates as a mod, I had no intention of verifying any of my new PBs (just haven't gotten one yet) and I expected him to have the same attitude. I wasn't keen on him verifying his own runs, but I didn't want to start an argument over it especially since it doesn't seem to be an uncommon thing on the site.

--Your next paragraph is irrelevant to the current discussion; being mainly about the Spirit Of Speedrunning--

In summary: different versions of the game will have their own kind of separation (I'll do that as soon as I finish writing this post), skips vs no skips will remain subcategories until a point at which the number of skips runs greatly outweighs the no skips. At that point, another discussion should be had to determine whether to combine them.

lol When I run the game at GDQ I'll do fine and I will run the game full playthrough as fast as possible. Not only does it seem more appealing to the audience but obviously the runners as well. I've done some of these skips before but this is the way I honestly like to play the game and it seems like others do too. The question I bring up when I showcase this game is will there be a donation like last time this game was ran at GDQ saying "Come on Brando, I want you to beat my world record" When I'm not even attempting the same run as you? Don't worry tho buddy you don't even have to donate for that I'll still shout your run out and give you the attention you deserve <3

I've added the variable for versions. There's only 2 I'm not certain about on here, as I only had a quick look at each run to see what version it's been ran on. If I'm wrong on any, please let me know. I'm also open to suggestions if you think there's a way to make it neater/tidier

Yeah I'll organise stuff now but Timmy it seems your glitch is allowed from the community so you're good on that. As for the "No Skips" category. It seems to be the most ran and popular so that will stay. Anything involving that category if it is discussed anymore will be if the name "No Skips" suits the category name which I think it does. As for organising different sections for different ports that does seem like it makes sense because time differences. I wasn't sure if it may look a bit cluttered but it will help with organisation. I've been wanting to run the 3DO and Sega CD Version for fun so it works out. Thanks for the discussion :)

"Don't worry tho buddy you don't even have to donate for that I'll still shout your run out and give you the attention you deserve ❤️"

Ahah okay okay, I deserved that spike, and probably more. I may have been a little harsh with you brandoocates, I do apologize for that. I absolutely don't want you to give up or even to make you feel angry, sad or anything like that. You have the chance to participate to such an important event and no one should be able to steal this joy from you. I am sorry, I really, sincerely am. For my final words about categories, I still think you should at least separate 15th Anniversary to 20th anniversary. Console/PC differences being more anecdotal, I guess we could just ignore that, at least as long the activity of this game isn't bigger. About Skip/No skip sub-categories, I am nobody to say that you did that just because you can't do better or want to keep a first place. It didn't feel quite logical to me probably because I'm very into strict and inflexible rules, but it's hardly an excuse to be such a lesson giver. "This is the way I honestly like to play" => I never should have been questioning that, it is above all the best reason to run the game the way you want.

If you're not too mad at me about what I've said, I'll be really happy to talk with you as you asked, and show you that I can be more than just an arrogant sshle with you :s

You know I respect you NHG and you were the completing piece to this forum to be honest. You seen what I'm capable of. You have to understand I am a bit stressed about this whole thing especially with GDQ coming up but I want everyone to just be happy with what's going on as a community and your say is important to me just like everyone else in this community is. I feel this game is starting to grow. Weekly I have new runners asking me about the game and at least 3 new submissions a month. I'd love for you to be apart of it like I said in the past and work with me to organise this the best as possible and hell even give me pointers if something doesn't feel right. Still this game for me should be played two different ways "No Skips" and "Skips" because it adds more variety for all runners of this game allowing it to grow not only for people that prefer it but also for beginners just starting out. I hope you understand and I also apologise if I was a bit nasty to anyone. I never look for easy or free WR's I bust my ass as a speedrunner in general to do the best I can. It just depends what triggers my interest the most on how the game is ran.

Also I've always been on board with organisation. I sorted a lot of things out. Let me know what you think. I've added most of the common categories and if anyone submits anything that hasn't been listed I'll make sure to add it when I or someone else verifies that run. I added PS4 and XBOX ONE 20th together because I've ran both and there is no difference in time. Also Timmy if you don't mind resubmitting your "No Skips" Run again I'll approve it. I think it may have gotten lost in the mix : (

This thread has been an eye opener, that's for sure. Appreciate all the differences in opinion - although I wish it hadn't got so personal, we're all clearly passionate about the game.

I like the separation of all the different consoles/platforms though now even I'm questioning the existence of No Skips. Maybe now that all platforms are separate, having no skips is more redundant? I'm not sure.

I'm almost thinking 100% should make a comeback. Window cutscene just throws me off.

Tbh going into the game I didn't quite understand 100% until I realised what it was all about - a full playthrough which involves Lester knocking out all the breaker boxes, knocking the big man out with the green lamp, and the window cutscene, which is a bit silly to some but it was an example of a full completion of 100% of the game because you are viewing every cutscene and completing every objective that was intended for it. Not only are you doing a full playthrough, which I personally think is 100%, but it's also not touching the talent and hardwork that was put into the Any% category. So to me it's separated in it's own unique way.

I think 100% may have been a better way to define the category now that I'm thinking about it, but of course I want your guys opinion on it as well?

Hmm. This is like a complete 180 on what I was feeling, but I am thinking if we keep no skips it might just be best to go back to calling it 100%. Still don't think it's perfect but now that we've had this discussion I kinda feel like whoever came up with 100% had a stroke of genius, lol. Still don't know about window cutscene, I'll leave that decision to you guys if you decide to go back to 100%.

Any% without skips kinda doesn't make much sense if some of the skips are as easy as you guys say they are (which I believe and can see for myself). The concept of 100% perhaps gives the category more purpose.

Regardless the discussion is important and this is the time that the game finally gets organised the way it should be not only for us but all runners. To come to agreement on what we think is best and what makes the most sense. I'm not upset or angry that any of this happened. I'm happy it did to be honest. We got some of the top runners involved and people that generally care deeply about this game.

Edit - I messed around wth the leaderboards a bit and to me it looks good and well organized and filled in. I think this may be the best way to go considering a lot of old runs did do the 100% run with the window cutscene.

Also to answer your question NHG. Yeah let's talk on Discord :) Not sure if you want me to add you as a friend or?

Congrats on GDQ! I can't fully understand these discussion with my poor English. So I would like to say a few questions and opinions. And please forgive me even if I say strange things. (This is also the first time to use the forum of speedrun.com.)

About 100%, did you mention about achievements? We ignored the achievements such as "Free fall" and "Secret UFO" . In that sense I thought that 100% name might be incorrect. But I really like "Window CutScene". I think that scenery is very important in talking about the world view of this game. and It is also important that it is not disturbing so far on running. (I think that it is stressful to leave to see the UFO in speedrun.) Even if the name 100% is not suitable, I am glad that "Window cut scene" remains.

About 20th Anniversary and 15th Anniversary, In Japan, It takes a lot of trouble to get "15th Anniversary". So if there is a difference between 15th and 20th, I'm in favor of separating categories. btw Nintendo Switch version was also released.

I'll be there cheering for @Brandooates.

When it comes to that category it seems 100% suits it best I guess? In terms of defining a 100% I feel every game has it's own unique way of doing it. I suppose once the timer starts you are viewing every cutscene possible, Knocking out all the breaker boxes, Shooting the green lamp. Even tho no objectives are listed in the game you are realistically completing every possible thing in the run by the time Lester gets beamed up to safety. I did go back and read some of the comments again on here and I'd like to say this was never about keeping a World Record or having the best time. This was about fairness and making sure the community is fully happy with the leaderboards or at least accepts it for what it is. To answer a good question that some seem to ask is "Would I ever consider this category if I could do all the skips?" and the answer is absolutely. I learned the skips a long time ago but I suppose it never appealed to me as much as a full completed run but it seems a lot of the community feels the same since there runs are very similar. That was a big reason why I felt some sort of category needed to be made for those runs because the popularity of running it that way. It almost doesn't seem right to put a run like that in a category where they are not even attempting at least one skip or even thinking about doing it. As for the Any% Category. I practiced yesterday and every skip is possible on PS4 so to say it's harder on console was wrong on my part. It's really personal preference really on what you are most comfortable running on port wise and strats may be slightly different as well due to speed or AI but it can all be done. As for my comment N.H.G about giving out tips. That wasn't directed towards Timmy. It was some random person on the forum that doesn't even run the game or maybe he does and doesn't have any of his runs listed? I know I'm not the best but there's no doubt I put a lot of hardwork and dedication into this game and I feel I have enough knowledge to give out tips on strats if people ask. That's pretty much it on my end. I just had to get some stuff off my chest and I hope it helps any runner or person on the forums have a better understanding on what I'm trying to do here.

Please, no more vindication. You don't have to justify yourself for my stupid accusations. I was wrong, I was mean, and I should have explained my point of view about categories without... Well, without saying all the other dumb things.

About the skips and as I already said, there's only one that is objectively very easier on PC (the one before the arena) because it is really simple to make an instant double half turn on a keyboard. The same input with a controller asks some mastery as it's easy to activate an unwanted direction during the process. Beckski93 noticed that I said that every skip were doable very easily while I insisted a lot of time about how the water-skip was RNG based, it is indeed the case, This skip is so apart in my head that it felt natural to say "all skips" without including this partuclar one. As far as I know (Snes, GBA, Megadrive, 15th, 20th, PS4... Wow there's an Atari Jaguar version =o now) they never changed the mecanism of that part so it is possible in every version.

I did not tried the Switch version yet even though I do believe that it's a 20th anniversary version. I don't know about its stability.

Oh, and about why I played the 15th anniversary version, it's only because I only had this version at the time. My first record came the same year when 20th anniversary came out and I simply continued to run the same version.

The new categorie section is pretty clean ! Good Work. I hope it doesn't seem too splitted for all of you ?

About 100%, I think you're right, once again I might be too stubborn. As this game does not require anything to collect, its own 100% definition can be indeed to do every possible scripted interaction with the game: levers, lamp, cutting streams etc... With that definition it seems natural to include the window cinematic even if it feels a little weird at first. Let's be relevant by not considering that pushing all buttons in the tank or using the second gun charging station are necessary. It would be kinda dumb, right ? x)

@Brandooates why add console/PC as sub-categories when there's already a platform filter? That's kinda redundant imo

I think sub-categories works better as it means total separation of platforms. Perhaps the filters themselves are now redundant for PC, but they still count if you’re going to choose your console on the console category. I would consider changing PS4/Xbox category to something like HD Console though considering there’s apparently a Switch version.

My other suggestion would be to only have 20th Anniversary and 15th Anniversary as sub categories. But this would mean console would compete against PC for 20th.

Edit: I'd also like to add that classic Tomb Raider arranges their boards in a similar style and to me it looks neat and organised that way, even if the filter does become semi-redundant.