New filter for Tiny Arena shortcut
2 years ago
Campania, Italy

Hi, I would like to know if it's possible to add a new filter to the runs, right now we can compare our runs with different engine (Speed, Accel, etc) but would be nice if we could compare also with how many Tiny Arena shortcut we performed, due to the RNG nature of the skip itself.

0lhi, Faceoff, and Natty like this
Dublin, Ireland

You could say this about many shortcuts like boomerang and tiziano. I don’t think it’s necessary when it’s only a requirement at world record level.

United Kingdom

TA is the only skip in the game with such a skewed risk/reward associated to it so I think a filter is a good idea. No other skip saves a minute and no one is consistent at TA due to the nature of physics involved.

Also TA is not a very skilled trick. Papu NMZ or Boomerang are high skill tricks and also do not save nearly as much as 2 TA skips. At the moment it's unfeasible that any huge skips are to be implemented. Any other TT skips currently not done are too difficult for the potential timesave. (OS Nyxx for example would maybe save 10s if done on 3 laps)

I keep the stance that TA adds little value to a run and comparing runs that don't go for it is a great approach to solve this issue.

Ahvena, juniorSM and 2 others like this
Kymenlaakso, Finland

Tiny Arena skip is a problematic skip for the game - when it was first found, quite a few people were excited for such a huge timesave. After some time and many failed attempts, people tried to figure out strategies to make it consistent - to little or no results.

That's why there was a push to ban the skip in the past, as it was deemed to be fairly harmful for the game and it's growth - given how it could skew runs all across the board. Not to forget that some players just felt inclined to go for it, due to the huge timesave it provides - even though they enjoyed the game less as a result.

It's a skip that anyone can do, you just simply put down a nitro and drive into it, but the physics make it inconsistent for everyone. Something like Boomerang (Polar Pass Mega) or Tiziano (Papu Papu Mega) are in a different ballpark, as practice and driving is a key to make those tricks consistent - and that way they are much more skill-based than Tiny Arena shortcut.

Banning a skip does go against the nature of speedrunning, unless that's the point of a category (although some games ban certain skips from a category because they're not enjoyable) - so that's why TA Skip exists in the main category of the game and All Time Trials -category was made to circumvent the skip and all possible RNG related to the regular run.

However, if a skip skews results and discourages runners from learning and playing the game better - it hurts everyone in the long run and I believe that creating a filter can alleviate that.

In addition to that, I would love to see Skipless from Category Extensions be a main boards of the game as a category like NMG. I believe it has the ability to encourage players to shift focus from doing skips to the main meat of what CTR has to offer - driving. It's incredible how much time can be saved just by improving ones' understanding of the game and doing stuff better.

tl;dr TA Skip filter👍 Skipless as a category 👍

Ahvena, juniorSM and 2 others like this
Hampshire, England

So when we brought this up last time, I said i was in favour for a new category, whilst i seem to be in the minority on that, it seems that the idea of a TA Skip filter is one that has increased in popularity since last time this convo was had.

My stance is already very clear i feel, i just want people to have fun lol, im super for some kinda way to filter TAless runs or not, might get some more people back in to the game since TA ran some people off.

juniorSM, Lornoveo and 2 others like this
Colorado, USA

I am so happy this is being discussed front-and-center like it deserves to be. The mental health of speedrunners is largely dependent on the strategies we go for in speedruns, and it only makes sense for the longevity of the game to disallow anything that can damage my weak little brain. This being said, it is clear that we need to punish the players who have pushed this game beyond what it was meant to be.

I'm talking about you, Hypnoshark. You are the one player to toxically incorporate every new strategy regardless of what it does to the overall community. Not only have you outgrown this speedgame in terms of skill, but you are so far ahead that nobody else even stands a chance. I mean really, a 48:47? Would it have killed you to stay at a 50:xx?

The expectations your run sets on new and existing players is madness. We might as well put the TAS time at the top of the leaderboards, too. I am in favor of creating a new category extension leaderboard for Hypnoshark's runs while leaving the rest of the board intact. Alternatively, we could force him to use Polar or Pura as a handicap if he'd like to stay with his friends on the main board. Congratulations Latsu7 on the World Record, and I'm excited to see my rank climb ever so slightly, as that is the only thing that matters at the end of the day.

VENGENZ, Vojtas131 and 4 others like this
United Kingdom

Thanks for the shit posting in a community you're not part of Jumpy.

I don't think there's any major disagreement regarding the filters from runners that has been openly voiced in either Discord or here, if mods have a chance to implement filters that would be neat. (Simple Yes/No I think works best)

Remember the WR doesn't change and all runs should be displayed by default anyway, but good to compare like for like for those who choose to.

Campania, Italy

It seems that overall this filter change may be appreciated by the community and the runners in general. Do you know if it will be possible to implement it soon?

United Kingdom

There is already too many filter and categories. I'd first drop several categories and filters before adding another one, otherwise I'm fine with it. Gonna vote No until that.

England

Before I get slack, I've been apart of this community for a while, Sprash and CTR and also I only found of this conversation today hence why I didn't immediately post my opinion. With that out the way...

IMHO Adding a TA Variable is a bad, almost inherently damaging, addition to the boards. I've gone back and forth with a lot of people on this topic and I think I've gained a pretty solid foundation of my points so:

1). This point has been made many times by others but it definitely stands. You CAN do speedruns of CTR without TA skip, variable or not, and a variable will change nothing to do with that. In fact, what it will do is allow people to chase for 'No TA WR' which leads me to my second point

2). A 'No TA WR' honestly feels like it demeans the work of people who decide to push the game and Tiny Arena. You completely bypass the need for grinding, pushing a trick which is part of the speedrun for an arbitrary variable because now Any% NMG isn't the only fish that the cat can grab

3). At what point does the line get drawn? TA is a 'skewed' mixture of luck and skill. But when WR for both the variable categories have Tiziano in them, what then? Will that also be a 'skewed' mix of luck and skill or is that okay? No matter how much 'skill' is in TA skip, there is some skill and that requires a level of respect, circumventing that can only lead to a hole

4). I saw some people compare this to variables on other games such as Spyro 2. Now whilst I respect that thought, it feels slightly misguided. Spyro 2 ER is a new variable because of it's entire re-route and most importantly, fireball. Fireball completely changes the way the speedrun is done, from ignoring revisits of levels like Fracture and changing simple but crucial things like flame charges and pot collecting. Case in point, have a look at the difference in ER and No ER Aquaria, it is night and day. Also in terms of variables, the variable for character type in CTR is also a good use of a variable. In the characters case, all 4 types completely change the physics, lines and in some cases, the way skips are even done, hence why a variable is a solid choice because it feels like a new experience whereas removing TA is playing for 20 tracks and doing 1 track slightly different which isn't a new experience, that is just not doing a single trick

5). If this becomes a variable for Any% NMG, it then has to be a variable for every category. Otherwise we are just nit-picking at one category for the sake of 'more people run it' but from the looks of it, and maybe I stand corrected, people only seem to care about this because it's the most contested and it's more about the category than the trick itself

6). The point that MANY people have made that this will attract more people to the boards because TA is no longer pseudo-necessary feels slightly flawed in my eyes at that comes from the past of the Emu and All TT boards. Both of those were to make the game more accessible and increase the player pool or at least increase the longevity of people playing. Yet the people who were already playing still played and nobody knew came from the split. You can see from the quantity of runs in recent, it was a huge burst when it first came to fruition and then little droplets here and there in the next 80% of it's life cycle and I respect the want for accessibility but, and onto my final point

7). I think this can only push people away. I've seen multiple people, who I shan't name, say that a filter would make them stop playing just because they feel like not using TA skip is a dirty thing, you've been pushed onto an island of your own and that kinda sucks. In the 'benefit' this might give top players, this will segregate and push apart newer and upcoming runners because the better runners feel hard done by the trick

tl;dr I think adding a variable can only hinder the boards nevermind add more people to the community even if the intention is good and wholesome, it hasn't worked before and I don't think it will now.

Thanks for reading, please don't give me shit, also no matter what a vote should be made because democracy matters. It shouldn't just be a mod circle jerk, ty

edit: Skipless should be a main cat 100000%. The fact that a TA filter was even concieved before Skipless is a main cat is crazy brazy gaming to me

Edited by the author 2 years ago
VENGENZ, Vojtas131 and 8 others like this
Finland

Solid points Kieron, however it must be addressed that the emu split absolutely brought more life to the game including new players and some returning players. But it's not the point of this discussion, just felt I needed to point that out.

After reading that I'm also leaning towards not having the filter, but personally don't even care that much, whatever yall decide to do is OK imo

Hypnoshark, Kieron, and FreezeChamp like this
Poland

Regarding Kieron's response:

1, 2 and 7) I do think this work both ways, there are certainly people that think "I can't do this trick, I can't compete properly" and stop running the game, but I do agree that you can run the game however you want and it'd allow for them to chase "free wr". Also I think it's important to point out that the initial idea a year ago was banning the trick as a whole (which resulted in All TT boards) and came back only recently again so a filter was proposed.

3 and 4) Don't have anything for that really.

  1. It wouldn't be a problem to add it to every category with TA, but Any% NMG is the most contested so people naturally would care about that the most.

  2. All TT boards was made to be "more accessible", but I'd have to disagree on the Emu Boards, we already had Console/VC split way before that and with the emu rules change for PS1 Crash games, it was a good opportunity to add Emu to that split (it has NOTHING to do with the filter situation, but I wanted to put it out here).

All in all, personally, I don't care whether the filter is there or not (I'm in the camp of "play however you want", but also more info about the run that is not new boards is nice).

I don't get the mod circle jerk point though, mods didn't just go and do it, Hypno made a poll, admittedly me and Natty (neither of which are mods for this game) thought people were generally not against the idea (there weren't really disagreements before Hypno asked about it, just here from Volcarona so that's why we thought that).

Skipless probably wasn't brought up because it's already on CE boards and no one thought "Hey, what if we made that a main category instead" which I think is not a bad idea.

Kieron and FreezeChamp like this
England

Just to clarify a few things,

The emu boards were brought upon the ban of epsxe and that's definitely something I didn't mention however it was certainly created as a place of accessibility so people didn't have to compare an obviously slower time to normal boards and maybe I'm incorrect in the effectiveness of player retention but from what it has looked like, no long-term runners who weren't already running/planning on running when the split happened came from it

As for Crodi's point on my 1st, 2nd and 7th argument, I definitely agree that the 1st point can be taken as account of either side but the 2nd and 7th I personally can't see. I struggle seeing how the work put in by people who used TA can be done either way, I don't see how it's somehow a benefit for the people who have struggled for TA to be done. As for my 7th, I do state in that point that "In the 'benefit' this might give top players" so I see why you're saying that but my thought process was that it feels like it's going to give less to top players than it would take away to a community of new and older players

Also my circle jerk comment was me just stating the obvious, not me taking any shots, no mods have been ill-willed during this, I'm just hoping this is dealt with appropriately was all I was saying

Hypnoshark likes this
Finland

Vyzixen is a great example of someone who really only started playing this game through the emu split

Kieron and Lornoveo like this
Campania, Italy

I'm trying to answer Kieron with the points:

1). You can do speedrun without TA skip, true, but if you wan't to do both you can not submit both runs in the same category. Chasing for a TAless WR would be like chasing for Accel WR, really isn't worth of notice;

2). Again, you can push for a TAless WR, but it does not mean anything in the leaderboard whatsoever, the real WR will always be the one with the skip, having the TAless WR it's like having WR in your own house;

3). For this point, I think the issue with TA is the insane amount of time you gain with a really small effort to learn the shortcut. That is not 100% consistent anyways. Tiziano wins only 10 seconds per lap;

4). For this point I agree with you, I see nothing wrong;

5). Yes it's true, it needs to be a variable for every category. I don't know if it will be a issue honestly;

6). Regarding this point, I think the decision to implement the filter will be more beneficial to top runners, because those use the skip. New runners will just see it as a filter and probably not care about that;

7). For this point it will be weird that a filter pushes people away from the game. A filter just add another parameter to evaluate and compare your time, it does not change runs for people who uses TA skip because they will compete for the real WR;

In general, your opinion is pretty good overall. But I think there is too many thought that can be confirmed or can be denied. Example: having a TA filter will push people out from the game? Possible. But also not having a TA filter could push people out from the game. There is no 100% confirmation that things will happen.

If we wanna focus about 100% things:

  • Real WR does not change
  • Just like I can compare my accel run with another run, I can compare my TAless run to another TAless run, and at the same time also compare TA skip runs with another TA skip run, I would finally be able to sumbit both.

On the downside of adding the filter tho:

  • too many filters
  • too many confusion on the leaderboard probably? (Needs to thing about 100% downside)

Thanks all for reading!

Edited by the author 2 years ago
Ahvena, Kieron, and Natty like this
Italy

Kieron brought some great points which made me want to address them here. Before I get started, I'm not an active CTR runner anymore, I'm happy with whatever decision the community wants to make, I just want to bring more ideas that haven't been talked about in this thread, which may help everyone to find the best solution.

[quote=Kieron]A 'No TA WR' honestly feels like it demeans the work of people who decide to push the game and Tiny Arena. You completely bypass the need for grinding, pushing a trick which is part of the speedrun for an arbitrary variable because now Any% NMG isn't the only fish that the cat can grab[/quote]

I think you're passing the wrong impression about the grind needed for both categories. TA skip adds more variance to the run, which has the side effect of encouraging playing safer in other levels. If both categories are grinded to its limits, a classical run would be more frame grind in terms of time save in each level, while a TA run would mainly focus on the bigger picture.

I don't think a separation would demean the work from someone who grinded TA, both WRs would require as much grind if enough effort is put into them.

[quote=Kieron]3). At what point does the line get drawn? TA is a 'skewed' mixture of luck and skill. But when WR for both the variable categories have Tiziano in them, what then? Will that also be a 'skewed' mix of luck and skill or is that okay? No matter how much 'skill' is in TA skip, there is some skill and that requires a level of respect, circumventing that can only lead to a hole[/quote]

That is an excellent point! At the end of the day, item RNG is not the biggest factor that increases the variance of TA skip, but the skill involved in hitting the right spot is. Banning TA is arbitrary and not future proof. Tiziano isn't the only skip which introduces a big variance either; Crash Cove lap skip, Oxide Station Nyxx shortcut, and many other TT techs would bring a lot of variance if someone could find a way to make them RTA doable.

I propose an alternative solution, which is a "classic" filter. Before TA skip, people competed for over a decade using pretty much a static strategy. The latest develops in the category before TA skip were the introduction of Speed characters, and Polar Pass "boomerang" skip. There's a historical significance for a category that doesn't allow any modern technique such as TA skip, Tiziano, or any other skip that may become RTA viable one day. I think people could be happy with this solution, since that would give more appreciation to Hypno's 50:17 run, while still making his current 48:46 WR relevant. This solution would eliminate the concern you brought in the 5th point, since there's not really a historical significance for 101% without TA, or an all cups without TA.

[quote=Kieron]I've seen multiple people, who I shan't name, say that a filter would make them stop playing just because they feel like not using TA skip is a dirty thing, you've been pushed onto an island of your own and that kinda sucks.[/quote]

The same can be said for both sides of the argument. There are people who have stopped playing due to the skip being found, and there are people who might stop if a filter is added. It's hard to quantify what side weights more in this discussion, so I don't think that is the right approach for this problem. I'd rather take the approach of: are there enough people playing the game in a classical way? Is there a demand for a classic filter?

Leaderboards should reflect what people play. Creating artificial categories won't make people want to play them, as we can see with many miscs categories in all SRcom. I myself believe that if there's enough demand, the category should naturally be added since there's a subcommunity playing it. I haven't checked what's going on currently, so I can't tell whether people are actually playing without TA, or if they just want a segregation without contributing to the life cycle of the board whatsoever. This point also addresses the "skipless" concern: if no one plays, why would you want to create a category?

[quote=Kieron]6). The point that MANY people have made that this will attract more people to the boards because TA is no longer pseudo-necessary feels slightly flawed in my eyes at that comes from the past of the Emu and All TT boards. Both of those were to make the game more accessible and increase the player pool or at least increase the longevity of people playing. Yet the people who were already playing still played and nobody knew came from the split. You can see from the quantity of runs in recent, it was a huge burst when it first came to fruition and then little droplets here and there in the next 80% of it's life cycle and I respect the want for accessibility but, and onto my final point[/quote]

I don't think that measuring "how many people joined the community because of X change" is a good parameter, specially when you can't properly measure weakly correlated variables in such a small community. The main take away of emu boards (and other QoL changes) is: has it improved the quality of the community? Do active runners benefit from the changes? Has it helped to provide more activity to the boards? From what I've seen, the answer for those questions is yes. There was demand for an emu separation, and people are happy to use it so far. The emu leaderboard hasn't downplayed the significance of a disc WR either, just like I'd imagine the classic filter wouldn't demean the TA/Tizi WR.

edit: typo

Edited by the author 2 years ago
Ahvena, Lornoveo and 4 others like this
United Kingdom

I remember a brief mention of a "Classic%" being raised before but wasn't sure how you meant to implement it. I think with clear cut rules as classic skips including Pass but no Papu/TA and future skips does "future proof" the old category which has a lot of historical significance.

I am in agreement with the points RH made above and Classic filter would be a great alternative to a TA filter.

Finland

Well you can always select the accel runs filter and that's basically the classic leaderboard, apart from the top 2 times that use ta skip.

Kymenlaakso, Finland

While this conversation has made me apathetic about the whole subject, I believe that the Classic% or TA Skip filter could be amended via a tiered approach to the skips.

What I'd suggest in this case would be All Skips / Classic Skips (or 7 Skips) / No Skips -categories, or something similar, which would take the Skips / No Skips distinction from Mario Kart -series, as the precedent exists there. The Classic / 7 Skips skips would essentially be the proposed "classic%" with an ironclad definition that you're only allowed to use skips that were used before 2020 / TA Skip, which would translate, in order: Papu Papu Bridge, Blizzard Bluff Fence, Polar Pass Lake Jump, Hot Air Skyway Spiral Skip + Fence, Oxide Station Dropdown + Fence.

Having a classic way to play the game has a precedent in other games, like in SM64 and Jak & Daxter, so it's not entirely unusual to see - however it's imperatitive that the definition of what constitutes as a skip should be ironclad and easy to understand, as we should make the game as easy and approachable for new players, despite this added layer of complexity.

I personally don't really care anymore how this goes down, but that's my idea regarding the subject.

Faceoff and Kieron like this
United Kingdom

We have to avoid making a category here, it doesn't require one and you'll get another pointless empty board.

I guess Classic is easily defined as no "mbrugliament" skips such as TA skip, Papu NMZ, OS Nyxx cut and Cove startline. Everything else is fair game and anything new found for the speedrun from here on out that wasn't an existing skip in TTs pre 2019 or so.

The "ban list" is very small and manageable. I think anyone can easily understand what skips they can and can't do.

Let's not forget the Classic mode is what has been understood in speedruns for 10+ years or more, a lot of things were historically possible and just not done in runs, like HAS hairpin and Pass boomerang, and I think these are fine to include.

Furthermore minor grass cuts and improved SG tech are fine, anything that builds on existing tech instead of brand new game changing cuts.

Kieron likes this