I did a pastebin about this and tweeted it but I should post it here too. I disapprove of this rule. I copy-paste my pastebin here:
The background about this is about the new rules for speedrunning Jackal. WR attempts must now be streamed to verify the authenticacy. My intention is not to start any fighting about this or call people out. But I think a serious discussion about this is due since it's not uncommon with submissions from chinese players on multiple boards and we could soon see a more spreading change of rules that I think should be discussed. I've started to be a bit upset in twitch-chats where people sometimes straight out and sometimes covered in silkgloves call out the chinese runners to be frauds, so I want this off my chest and at the same time start a discussion about it.
I remember some time back when Toad had not began to run this game yet. There were talk already then about the Chinese runs as "TAS-runs" since no other player were near those times at the time (when the record was 7:59 IIRC). That certain tricks in the runs were "impossible" to do RTA and whatnot. I heard it multiple times in different chats. It was later proven by Toad that the previous non-chinese runners of Jackal at the time simply wasn't good enough, or hadn't researched the game enough. Not trying to fire shots at previous runners but Toad only needed a few days to do a 7:51 and is now down to 7:44 which ofcourse theoretically should've been possible before too when sub 8 was "impossible" RTA.
Now many people found it suspicious that the chinese guys started submitting faster times again. But why? There been occasions where I have gotten WRs but since I at the time ran out of competition stopped to improve them but when I got guys sniffing my back I started the hardgrind again. Perfect examples are Yume Penguin where I stood on a high 9:56 for a long time, then Cartina picked it up again and got really close so I started playing again and got it down to a 9:54 quick. Same with Gremlins 2. I stopped at 7:49 before Big20 but then a lot of good players started it up so I quickly improved to 7:44. Then Riche started to hardgrind and we had a fierce battle all the way down to my 7:32. I would never had done what I had to do if it wasn't for the competition and why would it be any different from the chinese runners?
Or does anyone have proof of their runs being "fishy"?
Toad is an awesome runner who I have an enormous respect for, both in his skill as a speedrunner and on a personal note when we have talked, but it seems to me like some people thinks he's unbeatable. Hell, people thought I was unbeatable in Ducktales (I almost did myself) until garadas showed up. I think we all need to get down from our high horses sometimes. There are 1.5 billion people in China, the scene is growing and there are obviously some of them who are bound to be REALLY good at NES games even if they are "unknown" to us in the west.
The chinese must use proxies/VPNs etc to even access western websites and it's a big hassle for them to stream to twitch for instance. I'm not even sure we can access their streamsites and the quality is often so bad so it would be impossible to verify on that account anyway. What would stop someone from streaming a pre-recorded video in the middle of attempts? This particular rule just feels like an attempt to close off the chinese runners from stealing the western record.
If a run somehow is proven to be fraud. Using double-inputs only possible on keyboards and such they should ofcourse be denied, or placed in a different category. But disqualifying offline runs that have videoproof. I don't approve. My standpoint is innocent until proven guilty.
Give me your thoughts about this guys, and keep the discussion on a good level!
Like i already said on Twitter, i was really displeased when i 1st saw that rule being implimented on the SMB1 learderboard a while back, and i was and still am opposed to it... even tho i assume it was meant to prevent cheating, since not everyone streams and i personnaly do most of my runs offline, i considered this unfair...
Now, i personnally have made jokes myself about the chinese runners being hacks, and as much as i'm sure some might not have been joking, i feel that we shouldn't assume that ppl are necessairely dishonnest, and i'm talking about both ppl in chats talking about it and the runners themselves... we should give the benefit of the doubts in both cases!
I always been a fervent advocate of inclusivity, and i feel the more runners the better, no matter who you are... too many time i've seen elitiste attitudes in some speedrunning community, and the truth is, there will always be some rotten apples to try to ruin it for everyone else, but i feel that generaly speaking, the whole community feel the same way i feel, and is mostly compose of genuinely good hearted ppl who will warmly welcome in new commers and share their passion with them!!
The argument "smb1 does it" feels like an easy excuse of dodging the blame, or criticism if you will. I did not have knowledge of the SMB1 rules prior to this but it doesn't change my views.
So where do we draw the line to call a run legit? Full-room streaming where the entire setup and runner can be seen on cam and with live people watching in chat to ensure the runner interacts with live-posts and making the correct facial expressions to things happening in the run itself? SMB-rules only states "streaming" is required, but does it have to be with microphone etc?
I could agree with things like showing inputs and such when playing on emulator but that's another discussion.
I typed a lot as a reply, deleted it, re-wrote something else, deleted that and now after deleting my third written rant about this I realize I'm speechless.
Considering half of this fucking community offline grinds runs this year, you would think they wouldn't want to go towards "stream-only" records. But if thats the path you wanna take, sure.
This is not a direction I want to see the NES/retro running community go.
Livestreaming requirement is just silly and does nothing to protect authenticity. I could produce a TAS right now of any game and stream it "Live" complete with a faked input visualizer to improve your so-called authenticity. So are you going to require hand-cam too?
You're basically proposing that legit records gotten during offline practice just not be considered legit. That's incredibly unfair. And for what? You're not actually protecting the sanctity of the leaderboards by doing this. Anyone who wants to go that far to cheat will just, as stated, stream a replayed TAS after a few crappy live attempts. The only thing this is doing is shutting out people who can't/don't stream entirely... which I suspect is the intent anyway.
Don't pull this exclusive shit; you're better than this.
I'm not going to add much to this since this is being blown so out of proportion its ridiculous but I will add this: If this is a huge deal for this you should call out every single leaderboard that follows the same rule set. I am for offline submissions or for proven stream I don't really care either way as long as its found legit.
i haven't logged in here for a while but i´d like to share my thoughts tho.
First of all the chinese runners haven't been around that long and i´m really glad to see more of them run NES games.
Then back to the discussion here. lets just see how this looks like. top two runners are really close and theres been a decision to have live stream attempt required for a legit WR time without talking to the chinese runner, he could have run this game for years and with new rule this the community straight up call him a cheater which i see as very disrespectful to him without even talking to him. that is the thing that bothers me most that not even the record holder was contacted for the decision. as mentioned earlier its very hard for chinese players to stream and this will prolly make him not submit more runs. all the speculations in the chats calling the chinese hacks and cheaters is just really low imo since theres nothing to back it up with and he hasn't had a chance to defend himself. then what the requirements are: cam on the person that plays, people in the chat etc? if you going that direction that must be a requirement or else who the hell know who's playing? we mostly know each other around the community and if anyone else but the chinese guy would have submitted a offline record no one wouldnt even bother. but now its a new person that we don't know and immediately setting up new rules it seems like a poor attempt to not call him out as a cheater. why wasnt he contacted? that is my question doesnt he have a youtube channel where you can commment? theres no excuses for not getting in touch with him. this gives the nes community a bad reputation from a chinese point of view. the other games doest matter if they do require live streaming its not the point here. the point is that if this guy love running nes games you should let him do it his way. there must be ways to look up if a run is legit if you have doubts about it, and that should be the better approach. and if the mods are unsure of how to do that, let someone that has the knowledge do so. SDA has verified runs for many many years and from what i heard its not that hard to see if its a TAS or a spliced run.
i really hope this doesnt scare chinese runners away if it would have been me i wouldnt have submitted anything else.
time to contact him and hear his thoughts.
Nothing wrong with having the discussion, in fact that is definitely something that could and should be discussed somewhere. The big deal here was making it a public shit storm when it didn't need to be made one. This could have easily been solved in the BoNES chat or something. I agree with you on some points there BB but it still stands that there should be some consensus to all this and not just this specific situation.
I did not write the previous pastebin with the intention of calling any specific people out. The thing I want up for discussion is the subject of how to treat runs being made offline and since Jackal was the game that brought it to my attention and since I followed that community for a while it was only natural for it to be the triggering factor for me. Specially since the circumstances made it easy to bring up my argument-points where I argued about being absent for a long time from a game you hold WR in and then returning to bring it back/defend it. I was unaware that the SMB community does the same with their leaderboard but just because a game with such a big community does it doesn't change my viewpoint in it at all.
I could, and probably should, have talked to all the moderators on the Jackal-board on how they came to the conclusion etc. etc. but the sole purpose of my previous pastebin was still to get a discussion going about this topic in GENERAL. I might also add that about the things I wrote about people complaining about the chinese-submissions being TAS most of the people do not even run the game themselves so it should not been read as targeting particular runners of the game even if it might have looked that way. To anyone who feels they have been wrongfully accused or offended I give my sincere apology, because that was never the intention.
From what I've read in comments/reactions on other places most people seems to be focusing on the actual subject of offline runs, which I'm happy for, so let's please keep it that way and not start some kind of personal badgering.
thats why i suggested not take everything on twitter, this is what forum is about tho discussions. if more and more games requires live streaming less people will play. why only require live streaming on the best time and not all times. this was a kinda unique situation tho since the rule got decided right after his run got submitted
i don't see why this would be discussed in any other place than this. there was a new rule set for jackal that live stream is required and it should be discussed in this forum. people are gonna wonder why and communication is the most important thing to hold something together. i can see the first question was "THis may DQ the other guy, does he/she stream?" and still no answer to that? if more and more communities gonna have the same requirement for NES games it involves all of us thats why i think this is a good subject to discuss.
Nothing of what I set pertained to this specific instance. Of course it should be discussed here talking about the Jackal rules on this specific board that wasnt what I was referring to. What I was referring to was the general discussion of speedrunning video submission amongst all of nes speedrunning (or just speedrunning in general? specifically our community)
I don't check these forums much so I didn't see his question. No it would not DQ tian as I've explained prior both in my stream (which is an example of a place you don't bring this up) on here and on twitter. Jokes aside Tian has never been considered a cheater and I have looked to contact him prior but could not reach him, I couldn't find a source.
Again this is something that is still being blown out of ridiculous proportion and both sides have made their point. It is a very good subject to discuss that I look forward to discussing at a further date but that does not belong here, just the Jackal discussion belongs here. Again as I stated previously I am not apposed to either side of this rule of confirmation. There has been some rejected videos recently and some submissions should be taken a closer look at.
I do enjoy all the feedback from this and do look forward to further discussion with less heat involved. This should be a civil discussion about the future of video submissions and verifications and not so much angry banter towards each other. I love this community and I wouldn't want to segregate or separate it in any way shape or form. The more runners that join the better, period.
Also, can you please tell Rottdawg to keep the discussion on this open forum rather taking it to Twitter DM, just so he can throw around insults and and shit.
If Im gonna get shots fired at me, I would like it to be done in public.
Also I would like confirmation this rule also abides to Toad (or any western speedrunner) and he has to livestream any WR as well.
so moderators here going to social media calling out people cause of this? "@CartinaCow Well since you unfollowed me I'll just call you a thin skinned hypocrite here then"
its like people a are 10years old what is even going on?
