Looking for community input regarding video requirement
6 years ago
Madison, WI, USA

One of the most requested changes even before in-game time argument was updating the minimum video proof times originally posted here: https://www.speedrun.com/mkw/thread/c029i

It's currently possible in many categories to claim a WR run without video proof. I've thought up a few solutions to this and I'd like to hear feedback and other solutions from the community.

This solution involves coming up with extra minimum time requirements for all subcategories for each category (such as Balanced, No Items, Strategic for the cup categories). An issue that arises here is what to do with the video-less runs faster than the minimum requirement. We can either grandfather those runs in, or reject them (which is what I believe most other leaderboards do).

This is similar to a solution the OOT community currently uses for console requirement. The idea is that video is required for all runs within 10% (or any other percentage) of the current world record. When a new WR is set, the minimum required time will change. The two issues here are again the existing video-less run problem, and more so what to do when the WR run does not have video, which is now the case on some leaderboards.

This is the most blunt solution, where we remove all non-video runs and explicitly require a video for a submission.

Zans64, Stunky and 3 others like this
Canada

i think doing the first one is best dont delete runs from like years ago just say like as of feb, ?? video is required for xx.xx submissions and under

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Javi17, AmayaMKWii and 2 others like this
Virginia, USA

I think the easiest solution would be to say "as of X date, all runs that would be considered a World Record must require video proof", at least in my opinion. If not that, then something along the lines of what AquaBlake said would work as well.

Javi17 and Francesco like this
Texas, USA

Definitely require video for WRs, keep non-sketchy no video times from before the change and just require video for all runs now.

Madison, WI, USA

I made a spreadsheet (as I always do) documenting which categories have potential for videoless WRs, as well as showing the percentage gap the current time minimum is from WR.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OPyhCVOJbQReUIkoTxMgs3Oqg_L6iZmKMK4upmyUAL8/edit?usp=sharing

Francesco likes this
Spain

Hi Charlocharlie, so I wanted to ask you if I could add me as mod or verifier as I have been requesting it for around 3 months and also right now I am working on doing a kind of spreadsheet for the new video requirements so maybe you could at least consider it :) If I get added I'll try to do my best. Also any suggestions are accepted but please don't devalorate the effort I put into this.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
AmayaMKWii and Francesco like this
Hertfordshire, England

I'm glad we're finally honestly having the action taken where certain moderators who failed to fix such issues have been removed and we're seeing progress towards the right steps. These spreadsheets are a complete eye-opener to how flawed the past systems were, and I guess explain (but do not excuse) why certain blatantly questionable runs (some of which are now highlighted on that sheet as ones that shouldn't exist to begin with) were accepted in the first place.

I'd honestly like to, at least in the long term, see a rule where categories known to take at least x minutes (I'd suggest 30 minutes, so as 16-track runs and above, as well as 100% stuff, are all counted) require outright video proof just because on such longer runs it's especially easy to fake, or to just calculate everything using best splits in other categories (something I believe the PayToWin time that was revoked ended up being). I'd also like to personally see us make it so that the boundaries to require video proof on the smaller categories enable us so that any time even close to the top times can be verified. Especially with a game like Mario Kart Wii where cheats and other things are readily available and we already know (from both the competitive community's list of caught cheaters, the amount of times here on Speedrun.com that we're finding questionable, etc.) that people will attempt to falsify times, it's important that requirements for video proof are tightened up. I'd like to make it personally so that any run that even challenges Top 10 in a short category from this point on requires proof, just so we don't make the mistake that was made in the past where certain boundaries (such as a few on the spreadsheet where the WR is slower than the proof requirement time) are wrong. Not saying remove any unproven times up to this point or anything drastic, but we need to, especially on a game where you can extremely easily just add up best splits for segments and submit top times (it's not rocket science to add up times in game given so many categories overlap, and without video people don't even need to try to learn how to splice or anything else that may be harder to detect), increase the standards of moderation, and have more runs checked than currently need proper proof, whether that includes performing background checks on questionable players, outright refusing runs that seem too good for a newcomer to the scene, etc..

Francesco likes this
United States

Every single submission should have video proof. You can get a capture card for under 30 dollars, and why should we believe you if you have no proof? Of course, we can keep times that are already on the site (even though I am still against them; I can see how this is too big of a change - though.) But yeah, as I said, video proof for everything - legitimacy is of utmost importance.

Florida, USA

i dont think there is a worse community than mkwii when it comes to recording, i feel like every video i watch is recorded straight off the tv most of the time without a timer running, its better than nothing and should still be counted for for sure but cmon guys its 2018 i use a shitty knockoff EZcap (easycap) that i got for like $15 and it works fine there really should be no exception for no video runs at this point, im sure everyone of you at least has $30 to spend on recording materials or at the VERY least a old webcam or a smart phone that you can point at the tv to record runs

Minnesota, USA

I think top 10 or 20 should require video. Either that or times within say, 10 minutes or so of the world record require video.

Mesa, AZ, USA

I think if the run is under a certain time, it should require video proof. Also, I feel like moderating a problem for most of the mario kart games. I will admit that all of my current runs are without video proof, but I have no problem with changing that.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Madison, WI, USA

So I was working out some theoretical cutoff times in the 'Idea 1' tab of the spreadsheet I linked above.

There's a big problem with the Star Cup Skips/No Items category in particular. https://www.speedrun.com/mkw#Star_Cup Just looking at it you can see that the top 8 runs have no video. If we were to set the video cutoff at 9:30 for that category, that would invalidate 7 runs.

I'm still conflicted what to do with these runs. Some of them are done by proven players, but there is always a potential for fakes. If we remove the top 7, then WR is still videoless. Do we then have to invalidate that one to be left with the former last place run as WR?

England

No idea myself.

United States

Proven players or not, the runs are not proven. Thats just my two cents though.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Madison, WI, USA

Two proposed time requirement sets have been made and put in the spreadsheet in new tabs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OPyhCVOJbQReUIkoTxMgs3Oqg_L6iZmKMK4upmyUAL8/edit?usp=sharing

Let us know what you think!

marcine likes this
Madison, WI, USA

Due to lack of feedback, I'm just going to implement my time requirement idea starting tomorrow. If people feel that it's not enough, we can consider make the requirements stricter.

This requirement change only affects 100% runs an the individual cup runs, removing about 60 runs from the leaderboard. Some of the time requirements are actually relaxed from previous, and they average about to be within 4% of WR.

100%: 8:00:00

Mushroom Skips/Balanced: 0:07:45 Mushroom Skips/No Items: 0:08:30 Mushroom Skips/Strategic: 0:07:45 Mushroom No Skips/Balanced: 0:08:30 Mushroom No Skips/No Items: 0:08:15 Mushroom No Skips/Strategic: 0:08:30

Flower Skips/Balanced: 0:08:15 Flower Skips/No Items: 0:08:00 Flower Skips/Strategic: 0:08:15 Flower No Skips/Balanced: 0:09:45 Flower No Skips/No Items: 0:09:30 Flower No Skips/Strategic: 0:09:45

Star Skips/Balanced: 0:09:30 Star Skips/No Items: 0:09:30 Star Skips/Strategic: 0:09:30 Star No Skips/Balanced: 0:10:45 Star No Skips/No Items: 0:10:30 Star No Skips/Strategic: 0:10:45

Special Skips/Balanced: 0:11:15 Special Skips/No Items: 0:11:00 Special Skips/Strategic: 0:11:15 Special No Skips/Balanced: 0:11:15 Special No Skips/No Items: 0:11:00 Special No Skips/Strategic: 0:11:15

Shell Skips/Balanced: 0:07:15 Shell Skips/No Items: 0:07:00 Shell Skips/Strategic: 0:07:15 Shell No Skips/Balanced: 0:07:15 Shell No Skips/No Items: 0:07:00 Shell No Skips/Strategic: 0:07:15

Banana Skips/Balanced: 0:10:30 Banana Skips/No Items: 0:10:15 Banana Skips/Strategic: 0:10:30 Banana No Skips/Balanced: 0:10:30 Banana No Skips/No Items: 0:10:15 Banana No Skips/Strategic: 0:10:30

Leaf Skips/Balanced: 0:10:30 Leaf Skips/No Items: 0:10:15 Leaf Skips/Strategic: 0:10:30 Leaf No Skips/Balanced: 0:10:45 Leaf No Skips/No Items: 0:10:30 Leaf No Skips/Strategic: 0:10:45

Lightning Skips/Balanced: 0:10:45 Lightning Skips/No Items: 0:10:30 Lightning Skips/Strategic: 0:10:45 Lightning No Skips/Balanced: 0:10:45 Lightning No Skips/No Items: 0:10:30 Lightning No Skips/Strategic: 0:10:45

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Javi17, Francesco, and marcine like this
Illinois, USA

I don't see any issue with requiring videos in 2018. Laptops, smartphones, and cheap capture cards should make it pretty much accessible to everyone at this point.