No RNG Manipulation or Card Duplication
7 years ago
Bristol, England

So recently some forms of RNG manipulation were found in Forbidden Memories, meaning that we can now predict some drops on save files that were activated on specific frames, for example starting a duel on Heishin on the 640th frame and doing certain things in the duel to manipulate getting a Meteor B. Dragon drop. (explained better in this: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/542a280f999d3f7bece2a0fe3569d474 )

This forum post is for the community to give their opinions on seperating the categories. The sort of things that are encouraged to be discussed are firstly should we keep the runs that are currently on the Any% NCD leaderboard ( http://imgur.com/a/dZnvR ) under another category name? What should that category be called? Legacy%? Should it be misc? Add anything else you want to discuss to your response.

I think it's right to give my own opinion. Though I'm not really that keen on having another category, I think the runs should be kept on the leaderboard. I see 2 things we can do:

  1. Keep the runs on the Any% NCD leaderboard with or without an option to tell if the run had intentionally used RNG Manip to manipulate drops received or what your opponent would play against you (much like what we have on NG+ to signify if you have used pocketstation).

  2. Make a category (with a better name than "legacy%") and put it under misc. categories. On this category we can put all the old runs and people can still submit new runs for the category.

Discuss what you think in the replies.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
Nord-Pas-de-Calais, France

I'm up to make a category but why does it have to be under misc? It's the most popular category. For the name, I'll go with Classic%. Sunday races will still happen :)

Edited by the author 7 years ago
skubri, GFC and 2 others like this
Canada

I think at the very least we should make "legacy%" a misc, in respect for all the hard work people put into their runs before the manipulation was found. The discussion about making it a misc category or not doesn't really concern me, though as long as it exists in some way I would be happy. All the "legacy%" runs could obviously still be submitted to the "any% (no cd)" leaderboards as well.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
Wisconsin, USA

Please please please can we call it "Any% Legacy" and not "Legacy%"

Punchy, TylerSM74 and 2 others like this
Rhode Island, USA

I don't think they should be separated, especially not 100%. If you do separate any% tho, I think it should be misc. Also I'd go with 'Classic any%' or 'Legacy any%' rather than 'Classic%' or 'Legacy%'.

Mergy and Arkild like this
United States

Make Any%, then sub categories for "Legacy", "Card Duplication", and "RNG Manipulation" imo tbh

Zantru, Sebastian113 and 11 others like this
Wisconsin, USA

I like Cyber's idea, actually. I think it would make the board look the neatest.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
GFC and AndreaRovenski like this
New South Wales, Australia

I see it shouldn't be separated. It still falls under Any% No Card Dupe for me. If anything, the Any% NDC name should be changed to "Any% NDC No RNG manip"

Wisconsin, USA

Can't you see how asinine of a name that is though, Torpedorino?

Québec

its 2017 ffs, start using sub categories already

Florida, USA

I think that any% no cd by definition has not changed at all. The game is beaten by the fastest means possible without card duplication. New routes, glitches, manips are found every day for all other games and categories do not split (excluding glitchless, etc.). RNG manip does not change hardware or software within the game, therefore I say learn the manipulation to now have a competitive time on the any% no cd leaderboard.

That_NJ and Arkild like this
Québec

can you imagine spliting categories around just because of a manipulation

That_NJ, froggy25 and 2 others like this
New South Wales, Australia

I see it as a stupid name. But that's how I see it

Wisconsin, USA

Good input, boys

AndreaRovenski likes this
São Paulo, Brazil

I think making another category is the key. It doesnt have to be misc because its played by alot of people even tho in it essence is a misc. An example of it is Super Mario 64, in theory the two main categories of the game should be 120 stars ( 100%) and 0 stars(any%), but its not the case, 70 stars you are not allowed to do BLJ(kinda glitchless, but not all ), and its the 2nd category in the leaderboard list. I m saying that purely by empathy because I think myself that no manip is indeed a misc, We have to think about our community too. Maybe after that We will finally stop with "this category is shit and mine is superior thing", at least I hope we will end with this cancerous thing.

Spec3x likes this
England

I believe that there shouldn't be separate categories for runs using RNG manipulation and runs that do not. I feel as though defining a category stating "No RNG manipulation is to be used" is simply not feasible. Although you can avoid most of it by implementing a ban of resetting the console mid-run, that would not stop somebody from still being able to manipulate the starting deck.

I know from the discussions held in the Discord group that the argument has been put forward that it is possible to tell whether somebody has intentionally performed RNG manipulation to get a good starting deck. However, I believe that if somebody were to submit a locally recorded run, that would not show how many attempts it took for them to get a good starting deck, and that the starting deck that they did get differed from the ones used in the current RNG manipulation runs, moderators would not be able to tell the difference. So why should a new category be created if it's essentially impossible to police runs that go on it?

Another point that has been made is that RNG manipulation takes the fun and strategy out of the game, and that it is uninteresting for both runners and viewers. This is a non issue as far as I'm concerned. Races will stay the same as they've ever been, and it's at the runners discretion whether they want to use RNG manipulation or not.

tl;dr no new category imo, run how you want but don't expect results doing slower strats.

That_NJ, froggy25 and 3 others like this
São Paulo, Brazil

So you're thinking about segregating a speedrun under the policy:

"Don't reset the console as you wish before and during the run, and don't press new game in the time you wish as well"

I mean, if there's anywhere that this make sense it's here I guess.

Editing: The smart move would be to make a "RNG Manipulation" option on the leaderboards, which can be Yes or No, but without segregating the leaderboard. That way you know which ones used manip (as a STRATEGY distinction, NOT RESTRICTION), and you can compare as you wish, and still doesnt make a division that is impossible to define.

I would like you guys to really think about this - do you want this game to be faster or do you want to hold on to the old ways of running FM so badly that it costs the whole purpose of SPEEDRUNNING? Relax, and whenever you race with your friends just put "no manip" as a general agreement. The fun is still there.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
EduardoRN, That_NJ and 3 others like this
England

Having read Kyutora's post, it seems it's impossible to determine whether a legacy % run was performed without RNG manipulation. Is this correct? If so, how can this be limited through rule changes, and will the community be willing to accept these risks to preserve the category?

Florida, USA

Separating a category because you got shadowed is silly. Thinking about part of the community but shaming those who make a speed run faster is counter productive. If you separate this category you're making those who got lucky drops to justify their time supersede those who put hard work into turn a game into a better speed game. It makes zero sense in the speedrunning community. If a separate category is created, all times should remain under Any% No CD, and a blank leaderboard should be created for those who don't wish to learn new strats. It's as simple as that.

That_NJ and Kollin7 like this
Alberta, Canada

I 100% agree with Spectre's idea on labeling the runs within the same any% category as which ones are RNG manipulation and which ones are not. I feel it is the best option and creates a great compromise between the clearly divided group.

EDIT: I feel it should also be known that, due to the development of RNG manipulation, I have actually been practicing in my spare time to hit the deck frames and MBD frames, giving me an interest in actually running this game. Had this not come to light, I wouldn't be touching this game for any other reason than casual play. I feel this discovery is nothing but good news for the FM community.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
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