In all my years creating, installing and playing with mods I have never seen one cause "unknown side effects".

Meanwhile, I've been playing WoW for a decade and a half and distinctly remember entire gameplay systems being redesigned because ingame macros and mods were trivializing gameplay and putting unnecessary stress on the servers. I also distinctly remember crashing Morrowind and Oblivion with mods, and those games support them.

As for the argument in favor of bucking the status quo, I'm against that. The assumption that everyone is running an unmodified game hasn't steered the community wrong yet, and I don't see any valid reason to start allowing mods just because one person wants them. And unlike science, politics, and religion, this is something that has literally no real world impact, so I'm not sure why you think that this is at all related to the advancement of humanity. Not once in history have video games had any impact on a world-changing event, much less being allowed to modify video games for literally no reason other than "I want the actual Claire PSX model".

@DaGGeR while I appreciate your point, I contend that DMX should be okay with it, because copyright claims and DMCAs over a music clip is the least gangsta thing possible, and as I understand it, that is probably not how Ruff Ryders roll.

Capcom has referenced it on Twitter, so they're aware. Maybe we'll get it as an official DLC for April Fool's Day or something. shrug

Meanwhile, I've been playing WoW for a decade and a half and distinctly remember entire gameplay systems being redesigned because ingame macros and mods were trivializing gameplay and putting unnecessary stress on the servers. I also distinctly remember crashing Morrowind and Oblivion with mods, and those games support them.

Macros are not mods. Cheats are not mods. People who are "trivializing gameplay" are not playing with mods, they are cheating. There is a colossal difference. And crashing isn't an "unknown side effect" either, nor should it impact whether or not someone's run should be accepted. That is the kind of troubleshooting you sign up for when you install mods. This is nothing new and has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not benign visual mods should be permitted.

As for the argument in favor of bucking the status quo, I'm against that. The assumption that everyone is running an unmodified game hasn't steered the community wrong yet, and I don't see any valid reason to start allowing mods just because one person wants them.

Oh please. Lets not act like it's just me. I might be the only one here fighting my corner right now but it's not like the topic has never come up before.

so I'm not sure why you think that this is at all related to the advancement of humanity.

I don't, the point was that "Its how it has always been" is damn awful argument that has been made many times and it gets shot down every time for the simple reason that it's an awful argument.

Main reason I'm against mods in general is that we know the playing field is as vanilla and level as possible. Sure, a texture mod might not change hitboxes or affect frame rate (negatively or positively), but I can't ask a moderator of any game to be up to speed on every possible mod and how it affects a game.

Keeping it vanilla assures for the most part that things are leveled and there won't be any unintended effects.

Just because you haven't experienced something in WoW doesn't mean it's not possible. We're not here to question likelihood of unintended side effects, just if it's possible or not. And it is possible. Mods are great for your own time. But if you want to compete on the leaderboards, the game "state" should be the same for everyone, at least in as many ways as possible.

Imagine going to a competitive gaming event and you make it to the final round. You bust out your copy of the game with modified textures. Think it would fly there? No, and for a similar mindset/reason.

Now imagine going to a competitive gaming event and you make it to the final round...only you're told not only that you need to provide your own PC and copy of the game but also that you'll be trusted that you haven't made any modifications, let alone nefarious ones, something which the referees cannot realistically verify with absolute certainty because, despite being in a venue, they don't have physical access to your machine.

I respect the rule. Ultimately it's the mod's perogatives...I just don't agree that it's necessary when there's already a rule against cheating. The two things are totally different kettles of fish. One is certainly an issue, the other I disagree poses an issue.

On top of everything Toast said, allowing Mods would just give a much more "bootleg" feel to the leaderboard. There's a reason most boards on the site don't allow any kind of texture swaps / music swaps be used without rhyme or reason.

There's a mod called 'Roses and Wine' for Final Fantasy VIII which "fixes" the horrible MIDI sound effects for the PC version. Even though it wasn't initially apparent, this mod saves a small chunk of time during the run because it interferes with triggers that the developers tied to audio and completely removes them. One instance of an audio mod that has side effects during speedruns.

Would I say those users who utilized the mod cheated? No, they were totally unaware of the timesave initially, as was everyone. But do I believe those runs should be on the board still? Also no. Cheating unintentionally via ignorance does not hold the same effect morally as intentionally cheating through malicious intent, in my eyes. In that sense, cheating is not entirely black and white.

From a Moderator standpoint overall, allowing mods just puts more time into the workload and verification. On top of being a total waste of their time even doing those checks to begin with.

i dont see an issue with costume mods because they are just texture edits, but not model swaps as this could potentially affect hitboxes. Reshades also are only visual and don't affect the run at all. Vignette is the stupidest thing ever and this game has the stupidest green filter that makes everything look blurry and like shit at a distance. While I understand the need to ensure everyone is running on a level playing field, I think some of this stuff should be allowed on a common sense basis.

But Meat if we allow mods. Alots of them gonna be used and its gonna be harder for the moderators that checking the ”glod urn” if its legit or not. I beliving in keep it simple, no mods alowed.

And yes we are allready modding it with other framerate than the game was intended to run at and speedrunner tools etc. but the moderators can keep track of the few mods ppl using.

/NuZ

here's another argument. I currently have FP Mod with vignette disabled, and 2 costume mods installed and 2 of my submitted runs have those mods. FP is disabled (although vignette was turned off) and I am using a vanilla costume. So TECHNICALLY my files are modified and no one would ever know and it literally affects nothing because I currently wasn't using it. I submitted another run that's better than both of them and is running a vanilla game just because I wanted to make sure it was accepted, but that's the thing. We all agree not to cheat, reshades and texture edits on character models do nothing to affect gameplay and you can literally submit runs with modified files and no one would ever know . You can't argue things about changing stuff for higher FPS when we are already forced to cap FPS. I also have a theory that loading times affect IGT in this game so it's already an unlevel playing field for everyone if true. There are a few moments in the game where it fades from black and loads and the timer runs. Comparisons would have to be made to confirm. At the very least I would like reshades to be allowed as this game has stupid filters we should be able to turn off.

Macros are not mods. Cheats are not mods. People who are "trivializing gameplay" are not playing with mods, they are cheating.

Except it was 100% allowed and within the terms of use of the game at the time. So you'd be stupid not to use them since they gave such a large advantage? So EVERYONE used them, and it made the game terribly uninteresting unless your idea of raiding was hitting a 1 button macro for your entire DPS rotation, or clicking on Healbot to keep the entire raid alive without any thought. If it's supported in the game, by default, is it cheating? No, it's not. What started off as a few proof of concepts and interesting projects turned into the game basically playing itself - the community was given an inch, took several miles, and in the end Blizzard had to come out and flat say "this isn't how our game is supposed to be played" and made sweeping changes to the backend that lets mods hook into the game, and put relatively severe restrictions on what you could and couldn't do with a macro.

We're avoiding that entire debacle by just saying "no mods, period" as a community. I already said that if someone was willing to do the work and prove that mods don't mess with the game in a funny way, I'd be willing to entertain the thought. And since you're the only person vocal about it right now, and you have experience modding, you seem like the best guy for the job. Prove that character swaps and whatnot don't negatively impact the game as a speedrun so we can all make an educated and informed decision, instead of whining about how we're all clinging to the past because many of us either come from or know of communities where seemingly harmless modifications have had unintended side effects on the speedrun.

serious question, can i submit a run with voice and sound effects enabled, but no BGM, with have some NCS (NoCopyrightSounds) music in the background?

i'm not modding the game at all, just modifying in game audio settings and playing non-DMCAable music instead

it says right in the rules that is fine as long as the music doesn't drown out the game

Except it was 100% allowed and within the terms of use of the game at the time. So you'd ... any thought. If it's supported in the game, by default, is it cheating? No, it's not.

Again, macros and cheats are NOT mods. DO NOT conflate them. They are NOT the same thing and painting them as such is disingenuous and leads me to believe that you are not arguing in good faith. And yes...cheating is cheating. We don't call cheats for singleplayer games "mods" just because they're allowed there, do we? No, we call them cheats, because they are cheats.

Prove that character swaps and whatnot don't negatively impact the game as a speedrun

...and how would you have me go about do that? What exactly would be the standard of evidence that you would hold such a claim to? Furthermore, how are you supposed to prove a negative? You're the ones making the claim here; that purely visual mods would negatively impact speedrunning, which goes against all conventional wisdom on the matter, which states that if they are purely visual then (within reason) they confer no advantage. Seems to me that the burden of proof, if there is one, falls upon you guys to prove that they do negatively impact speedrunning, a claim which, if true, would be infinitely easier to prove since you would only need to find a single way in which it negatively impacts speedrunning. Conversely someone attempting to prove the opposite would need to scour literally every bit of memory in order to gain evidence of absence instead of an absence of evidence.

The HD Textures mod in Resident Evil 4 caught many runners off guard by making the speedrun noticeably faster. Mods have unintended consequences, even purely aesthetic ones.

We are here to compete with each other by playing the same game. If you modify the game, you are no longer playing the same game, even if the change is minor, it is no longer the same game.

The mods want the playing field even as possible for everyone and even minor mods that change the outfits etc may cause something within the game without everyone noticing. Be a pain to check and see about every mod etc doesnt effect the game in some form or fashion. It also makes the boards look cleaner imo. Even then if you allow people do add whatever mods they want then it opens the door to a lot of shit. If you are against that then that is understandable...but it is how the boards are ran. You can play with the mods on your free time but not during a run. I had to reject some runs where all they did was model swap Leon for Hunk in addition to adding sleeves for Claire's classic outfit...

IMO mods should only ever be allowed in speedrunning if they fall under one of two categories:

1. The mod fixes game-breaking bugs, optimizes the game more, and just in general makes the game more accessible and enjoyable to play by improving performance and allowing more options (DSFix in Dark Souls 1, FAR Mod in NieR: Automata).

2. The mod removes some aspect of the game that many in the community find unenjoyable and aims to make the run faster and more enjoyable (HRH Mod in Bioshock: Infinite, Door Skip in REmake).

And even if they fall in one of those two criteria they should still be heavily regulated, and be easily accessible to everyone. Not allowing texture and audio mods due to them having unforeseen side effects is pretty common sense, honestly.

Well, as already cited, the Roses & Wine music mod for FF8 totally screwed up that speedrun, and that's just supposed to be a music swap. So what leads you to believe that a character swap would have ZERO impact on the game, when there's evidence otherwise?

Just run the game modded and don't upload times, since you're so hellbent on doing it but don't want to prove that nothing ingame is affected by it. You're the one that wants to do it, so regardless of where burden of proof falls, the audience of people who actually care is, currently, you and you alone.

Well, as already cited, the Roses & Wine music mod for FF8 totally screwed up that speedrun, and that's just supposed to be a music swap.

Except it isn't a proper swap and the reason it breaks the run is well known and has nothing to do with replacing music in itself and everything to do with HOW it replaces the music.

It is now allowed to use the ps1 quality audiofiles under Resources. The reason why those files are allowed, while RaW is not, is the way RaW works: RaW mod does NOT replace the audiofiles, but it disables them, resulting in audio related triggers happening early (as can be seen in Laguna Dream #1). Replacing the files directly with the suggested audio package will make every trigger work properly.

You mean, they did their homework, figured out what was going on, and made a change the entire community wanted once they knew how to do it properly?

surprised Pikachu

Again, why aren't you doing this for RE2 since you're so hellbent on it?

Because

1. You have yet to provide any evidence that the current mods for RE2 are doing anything wrong or cause any issues.
2. RaW had issues not because it was a mod but because it used a dirty hack that never should've been used.
3. The methods used to modify RE2 aren't remotely similar.